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FYI on tempo and controlling it. There are lots of drummers out there, playing professionally, that use a metronome, or other beat checking device to check tempo before and during the song(s). Boss even makes a device that mounts to a cymbal or drum stand. With the energy on stage, it is really easy to rush/drag the tempo, even if you have great timing. I've seen some really incredible drummers start a song with too fast a tempo and it's a gallop to the finish! Useful tools are everywhere, use them to your advantage! I just wish the Boss unit had MIDI out! Respect Will Brake Soul Fruit Electronics -----Original Message----- From: Kim Flint [mailto:kflint@loopers-delight.com] Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 9:29 PM To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Subject: Re: Looping with other musicians, new tools=new results At 09:57 PM 8/29/2003, Mike Barrs wrote: > > >If you want to play with other musicians, a looper is a barrier > > >because it's like playing to a click track... which everyone > > hates, unless > > >they're another looping musician. > > > > That's true if the looper is a beginner and doesn't know how to adjust > > their loops with the music around them. > >I don't know about that. Even with tap tempo on the Repeater, you're a long >way from the kind of realtime, continuous tempo adjustment that happens with >live musicians. In addition to the tap tempo, you also can adjust tempo with the tempo knob on the Repeater. With that I think you could use a beat matching technique like DJ's use with the speed controls of a turntable. As with any other techniques for adjusting loop tempos, it will take some practicing to do this well. Certainly DJ's spend a lot of time practicing this, and good ones get the tempos matched up very quickly. I don't see why you couldn't do the same with your Repeater. Also, the Repeater has the Beat Detect function, where it can determine tempo from an incoming audio signal. It's a little tricky to work around the signal routing issues, but I think you can manage get a feed from the drums coming in on one channel and use that for setting the tempo for loops recorded on the other channels. (since you don't want to record the drums.) Then as the tempo of the drums coming in drifts, the Repeater will expand and compress the loop time to keep it matched and in sync. It works pretty well, once you work out the routing. There are other devices on the market that only do this beat detection, like the Red Sound Micro Sync which detects BPM of incoming audio and outputs a midi clock. This is commonly used by DJ's to match sequencers and tempo effects to the beat coming off a record. It could also easily serve your purpose to keep the Repeater (or other loopers) in sync with your live drummer, and you wouldn't have to deal with the routing problem on the repeater. >Also, it's a strange concept (outside of looping) for the >rest of the band to follow the guitar player, or the keyboard player, or >whoever is into looping. Tempo management is normally the role of the >drummer and bass player. Right! I agree, at least in a rock context. That's why I'm saying its the wrong approach for you to walk into that and try to change the whole band dynamic by insisting that now suddenly everybody has to follow the tempo from your loop in some section of the song. In my view, that's amateurish. You are the one controlling the loop, it is your job to keep it in tempo with the others, whether it be by your manual control, giving the drummer means to set and adjust your loop tempo, or some automatic sync mechanism. It's not a simple thing, there are many different tempo techniques that will apply to different situations, you may need to make some adjustments or compromises to make it work, and you need to do some practicing to get the hang of it. The more you understand it the better you will be at doing it and the more options you will see for any given situation. A lot of beginners with looping don't know how to do these techniques and try to insist that the loop is uncontrollable and therefore everybody else has to follow that tempo, which I think is an excellent way to end up being a solo musician. [Will Brake] <snip> > > It's no different from a beginner on any other instrument. How well does > > someone who just started playing drums play with others? That's gonna be > > just as much a tempo problem! > [Will Brake] <snip> kim ______________________________________________________________________ Kim Flint | Looper's Delight kflint@loopers-delight.com | http://www.loopers-delight.com