Re: Considering building an ultimate looper...

[andy butler <akbutler@tiscali.co.uk>]

Bob Weigel wrote:

> So anyway I'm fairly fresh with PIC programming from that project at 

A more powerful chip needed for the dsp surely?

> etc.  btw..one of the very important features of this unit will be that 
> it has my single pedal volume control interface.  We probably can get by 
> with 10 bit A/D there because if need be, there will be a movement 
> sensing in s/w which gates the selected CV's directly to the pedal 
> voltage!  This allows for absolutely smooth transitions to extinction.   

128 steps, as Jeff points out, when smoothed  is ok for most audio 
applications.
Except that it's not good enough for a slow fade to zero.

I do a lot of shaping the sound with quick pedal movements, and the 
'shapes' produced just aren't as smooth as they could be using 7-bit 
res, even with smoothing. ( with the smoothing fine tuned it's 
acceptable though)


> 
> The whole objective also is to make this more like the Jamman which 
> nicely syncs loops so that you dont' have to press buttons precisely.  

The sync in the JamMan is primitive and glitchy.
There's often a little scratchy sound at the loop-start, even when just 
playing the loop.

One of the "hard problems" in making a looper is how to handle overdubs 
while synced. Just try it with the JamMan to hear how bad it can be.

Actually this sounds like exactly the sort of problem you'd enjoy 
solving :-)

...but maybe you don't want to overdub onto the loops ??

> We may have it with a couple *modes* and call that 'tight' mode or 
> something and have an 'open' mode which allows people to do polyrhytmic 
> overlays if they want :-). But minimally we want it to  be capable of 
> tight looping regardless of when the user hits the start button.
> 
> A host of other nested possibilities with tempo tapping/sliding are 
> being considered also. 
> And some other options that I probably shouldn't 
> mention at this time :-). -Bob
>

 From watching the video of your client, what you're basically intending 
is something like "8 stereo JamMans" in a box, all of them in Loop Mode.
Just using each loop to record one layer only.

That doesn't sound too hard to implement, so I'd support your optimism 
in thinking it's easily possible to do.
As you described from your experience, it's much easier to design when 
you know all the requirements at the start of the project.

I think some of the more "unbelieving" comments on the list here are 
provoked by the "Ultimate Looper" moniker. There's a lot of people here 
who would find the "8 stereo JamMans" approach somewhat lacking in the 
features that they rely upon.

If you want to make the "Ultimate", then it's going to take a lot of 
time and sweat, possibly starting with a review of the ways in which 
people use their devices to create structured music.

As a designer, I'm sure your familiar with the term "feature creep", 
where a program picks up extra features during development, ultimately 
making it almost impossible to make it bug free. Be warned, a looping 
device attracts feature creep in a big way. Loopers think that Beta 
Testing is an excuse to get their ideas put into the machine :-)

Good luck with your venture.

andy butler

( yes, I was tester for the EDP )