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Caution: The following remarks are by a card carrying member of the "Tyrannical Ambient Front". Those easily offended by the lack of respect given to tradional musical logic, should avert their gaze now................or read on, and gather new scorn. With all due respect to the recent astute and insightful comments made by Kim & Andre and others on the issue of ambience, wait! You've forgotten the extremely quiet and unobtrusive subject that you chose to discuss initially. Don't take offense, everybody does it. I don't remember the last time I read any print media relating to supposedly "ambient music" that didn't immediately veer of into little more than a lame discography with no discussion of the genre's history. Once "new age" came along as a catch all (featuring well behaved synthesizers,audiences, and sales figures) then critics could sweep those pesky musical innovators passive and static alike, under the new age rug. That a style of music that seeks to, "mingle with the sounds of knives and forks at the dinnertable"-Satie or be"as ignorable as it is listenable"-Eno ,should find itself unable to articulate it's concerns as they relate to it's being an evolving musical style, is not surprising. But their is over 100 years of work between Satie and Eno, by a wide array of artists who have utilized traditional and electronic means of composition to archive explorations into sonic spaces never heard before. Even the seemingly most obtuse and difficult (stylisticly) composers have, hidden in their catalogue, a work of a passive or contemplative nature. For that matter musical works that approach a truly ambient sensability have existed in cultures worldwide for thousands of years, but the concert bootlegs are hard to find and crowd noise is crowd noise. A whole list of styles that fall within the "avante garde" have contributed pioneering techniques and devices that have slowly made new textures and sounds part of the modern global village. The impact of loop technology one hundred years hence on this planets music could be astounding. Will the really striking and popular musical styles that use this technology be seen as owing a debt of gratitude to the ambient explorers of old?....I doubt it, pop eats itself ....However that doesn't diminish the value of the ambient contingent. Good ambient music is as totally interactive with both a listening space and the events that occur in that space as it can be while anticipating the thresholds of audience perception. The question of what constitutes too much or not enough musical activity to qualify as being "ambient" simply constrains the possible variations of venue for performance of a musical style that seeks to gauge it's technique to an entire performance space and time in a more sympathetic fashion than most traditional music. Which is not to say that a good group or performer can't "move" with the mood of the room from snoring to frantic and back, should the spirit move them all. I guess what I mean to say is that sometimes "heavy metal" tonalities are the correct texture to create an ambience appropriate for a particular space and time and as such the "ambient" label actually covers every possible style that could ever be mislabeled. As you can see this "ambience" thing is..well.. everything and nothing at all and what with it's place secure in the historical development of "loop" oriented music..why, you have nothing to fear from them old ambient hounds hangin around the loop porch. Whose to say that if we filled a stadium with loop- technology users from around the world that they wouldn't all split into seperate camps anyway, they could prove all too human in that respect. Being a 39 yr old white male self employed at poverty level wages with a wife and 2 kids, limits my fiscal clout ,but not my desire to see music fully embrace the possibilities of new technologies, new ears to hear it and interpret it's meaning..and think of what to call it. I'm shuttin up.... and pluggin in... Bryan Helm P.S. I wanted to recommend again to anyone interested in the issue of ambience, a book titled "The Tuning of The World" by R. Murray Schafer 1977 published by Alfred A. Knopf