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Gee, I think everyone who has contributed to this thread has made some *very* insightful comments, and asked very worthwhile questions - really thought provoking. (Kim's yawning. So hit the delete button, fer chrissakes! :-) A few things I'd like to add: I have enormous respect for musicians who are willing to take the risks that P2 is on this tour (or for that matter, any players who are performing improvisational music.) Improvising in a concert setting is one of the most demanding, challenging, (and freeing!) performance environments there is. I'm not sure how many "ground rules" P2 has set up for themselves structure-wise, but regardless, it takes lots of chops (plus a few riffs to fall back on when the going gets rough :-), lots of experience, and a whole lot of guts just to go out there and do it in any contexKct. There inevitably are highs, mediums, and (hopefully not many) lows, as well as some downright loose moments; there certainly were at this concert. But the P2 boyz were laughing at themselves! What the heck - just affirming they're mortals after all, having a good time, pushing the boundaries - they've been on stage a time or two. Within reason, (and that's a very subjective qualification, I admit) I'd *much* rather hear exploratory inconsistencies, self-absorption, and blatant screw-ups (and transcendent, in-the-moment inspiration!) than something slick, canned, and predictable. Especially when I know that's where they're coming from to begin with. These guyz were out there doing what very few musicians are capable of, or willing to try. It's important, I think, in gauging the "success" of such an undertaking, to bear in mind the considerable difficulties and risks inherent in the attempt. (Matt, I know you were referring to "finished" performance as opposed to slick - I'm obviously speaking in much more polarized terms than you were. This is not intended at all to rebut your response, which clearly was thoughtfully c onsidered, and very stimulating. More just my personal view, as is yours, which your questions helped me to identify...) Story time, girlz and boyz: I'm reminded of the first time I heard Emerson, Lake, and Palmer in concert, early 70's. (Oh gawd, that just about puts me in Grandmaville, doesn't it? @8^) I went to their first-of-tour warmup concert in a little college town, and they blew me away. It was flawless, intense, dynamic - big flashy show. Two nights later I saw them in the city. Clone concert, absolutely identical down to the note, nuance, rap, look-up-at-the-crowd-with-sexy-smile-on-this-measure, *everything*. I was really disillusioned. Of course it practically *had* to be done that way; it was a tightly orchestrated and timed production, a huge, expensive tour, loads of technicians each playing a precise and critical part. And it was *very* impressive, at least the first time around! Besides, who was I to judge? They were playing their own ground-breaking, technically demanding music, the concerts were hot, their records were selling, they weren't working day jobs, and they were touring the world! Not too damn bad. But still, the impression lingers. It's not *their* fault I was disillusioned. They were playing their butts off, delighting their fans, and paying the bills. (I do wonder, though, if by the end of the tour, the repetition started to feel stifling, even with the adrenaline rush of playing for huge enthusiastic crowds.) The problem was only mine, in that my expectations were pretty na•ve and idealistic. However, _I don't think that idealism was unfounded at all._ It was a major turning point for me in terms of realizing that improvisation was a more satisfying direction for me personally. (Not terribly lucrative, however. I've certainly had to play my share of covers to pay the rent. At least ELP were playing their *own* covers!) Which is why, at the very least, I admire the scope, vision, and risk of the ProjeKct tours, independent of the music itself. How Fripp, Gunn, and Belew -- and their fans -- will feel about their efforts and depth of experimentation when it's all over is anyone's guess. The music's evolution over the course of the tour will be very interesting. I'd love to hear an "after" cd juxtaposed with the pre-tour recording. (BTW, if you really are hopelessly pathological about this, Gunn's Road Diary has some entries about making the P2 cd, as well as the P1 performances: http://www.treygunn.com/road.html. Hearing about P1 & 2 from one of the participants is actually pretty revealing.) OK, off my soapbox. Thanks for everybody's perceptive, probing questions, and thoughtful ideas. laurie >-----Original Message----- >From: Mike Biffle [SMTP:Mike.Biffle@wj.com] >Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 4:29 PM >To: Looper's Delight; Mike.Biffle@wj.com; T.W. Hartnett >Subject: Re[4]: ProjeKct 2 @ Palookaville, Santa Cruz, CA... > > Hi Travis... > > I have to say, I was thrilled to hear them do exactly what they did. >I > saw Crim play when they were here, and liked that for what that was >as > well. Meself... I kind of prefer hearing them tap dance in real time! > > In regards to rough sketches vs. finished product. I believe Fripp >has > been very vocal about working fast with limited takes in the studio >to > better capture true musicical moments as opposed to canned rote > performances. (This is a pretty polarized way of putting it). > > Does that imply that Crimson with it's highly composed elements is > actually the most restrictive setting for Fripp and possibly at odds > with his real-time playing philosophy? > > I thought that the earlier comparison to Miles early 70's stuff was > pretty cool. Not that I would reference the jazzy synth lines he > played as the most direct linkage to that music... I'd say P2 was >more > closely related by their distinct lack of structure and stream of > consciousness approach. Anyone can play cheesy faux bop, but that > doesn't necessarily breathe Miles' magic into it. I give P2 a lot of > credit for their liquid jamminess! > > -Miko > > PS: I think there's another band out there called U2 (formerly UnIt >2) > who Fripp copied the P2 name from! How unoriginal. I believe I heard > him playing a couple of licks from the Zoozopa release as well. tsk, > tsk! 8-> > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Re: Re[2]: ProjeKct 2 @ Palookaville, Santa Cruz, CA... >Author: "T.W. Hartnett" <hartnett.t@apple.com> at INTERNET >Date: 3/24/98 5:15 PM > > >>Hmmm....Miko hinted at this too I think. I've been pondering this idea >of >>"re-inventing" yourself musically. Is it responsible or proper for an >>artist to take his or her rough sketches out on the road to present it to >>his/her audience? Or is it more responsible to refine the work and >present >>it as a finished product? As humans, I know that part of the experience >>and joy of reaching a new level or obtaining a goal is the journey >>itself....but...don't you feel cheated when someone presents you with >>something that is less than you know they are capable of producing? > >Not if there's been extensive discussion of the unrehearsed, >improvisational nature of the gig. It would be unexpected (but not >unwelcome to me) if this happened at a King Crimson gig, but the ProjeKct >shows have been publicized as improvisational events. If you want >preplanned pieces, go to a Crimson gig, or buy the record. > >I don't think Fripp, Gunn and Belew are holding anything back, or viewing >this as an easy way out. I think that the ProjeKct shows are what they >are capable of producing at that point, with no pre-planning. Not all of >it may be to one's taste, but that's the risk of attending that sort of >show. > >Travis > >