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All, i would like to emphasize the point others have made that the dual loop technique thread has been incredibly valuable. It is interesting and instructive to see such a range of approaches to organizing noise! i don't know what the exact relationship beauty holds to diversity, but i do know that i'm much more likely to encounter the former in an environment, like the LD list, which supports the latter. i wonder if it would be possible to circulate some 'theme' (or pair of themes) through each of these different techniques and see what comes out. i'd love to be able to hear each one side-by-side-especially with a description of the process used. Is this a starting point for LD CD3? It would also be interesting to try to organize this emerging palette of approaches. For example, how many processes are deterministic, same input-same output; and how many non-deterministic? How many are signal-path based (work the same way no matter what the signal content) versus those that some how actually make use of the content of the signal (work differently depending on the content of the signal)? Coming up with the questions that tease apart different approaches almost always helps me see how i might best apply a given approach to achieve the effect i want. Often it helps me see new approaches. --greg