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93/156 On or around , Jprice01@aol.com said: >the majority of loop work people will see & hear let alone the loop stuff >folks actually are aware of is visually represented by men who are almost >always overly analytical, gear driven as opposed to being inclusive >feeling >in texture and overall attractiveness ( be it physical attractiveness, >social or frivilous, etc). Other than perpetuating the usual PC "men are slime" perspective, I don't really see how this is relevant; the 'inclusive feeling' in texture isn't something that one can reasonably quantify as a male or female trait. As far as physical attractiveness and performance, I've discovered that being competent and self-assured (as well as not just some idiot out to get laid) overcomes resistance in this area; ditto on the social aspect. Being "frivolous" depends on the context at hand; I'm all for looping my literal (as in, children's) toys in frivolous numbers if the time be right for such a thing. >Plus most loop music just feels like a guy thing with an anti-social or >detached-intellectual guy perspective. And when i say anti social i mean >in >a way that is boring as opposed to invigorating or inspiring more than >just >others like themselves. Interesting; I've had my best overall reaction from women having heard my music, yet I seem to typify the traits villified here. I don't waste my time with stage shows or audience participation or generally on doing whatever the muse strikes at the moment. That said, I do not believe one bit that 'loop music' or any other kind for that matter will fail to attract a wide range of people...if it's performed well, is generally of interest, et cetera. Even when I've gotten into the realms of modulated feedback, I haven't seen women run for the hills. >Most loop music and musicians are always looking for affirmation amongst >themselves and it always perpetuates itself. Most artists, be they male, female, or undecided, do the same thing. It's called building community, based on interest. >But how many times can you >preach to he converted ? How many times do you feel it is a moral imperative to preach to the unwashed masses? I mean, I play a guitar, and not even very well in a technical, proper sense, and that's it. There isn't any attendant responsibility to bring culture to the masses, or promulgate looping, or whatever. I don't bother to promote my religion to the troglodytes of the world; why should I raise my music to a different standard? In the end, I'm making sound waves, nothing more than sound waves. If I hear them, that's enough. If it happens to influence others to make a positive change or commit suicide or walk out in disgust, so be it. It isn't my intent. >most loiop artists seem to be content preaching to >the converted and remain in very familiar and very safe looping contexts: >art galleries, coffee shops...not many loopers seem to me be playing to >anyone other than their own. I have no desire to personally go forth and push the envelope with my performance in that shoving it down someone's throat at an unfriendly venue just doesn't cut it. It's rude, counterproductive, and generally not something I choose to do as an artist. Sure, I went through my "turn the amps to 10 and make the soundman's ears bleed as we make 2 1/2 hours of absolute shit that doesn't bear any resemblance to Western music" phase, just like a lot of us probably did. I still do it from time to time..but going out with a message or to convert people just isn't my style. >and to illustrate what i mean, look at this analogy which is quite >obvious >and may seem a bit like apples and pineapples to the die hard loop dudes >but >here goes: It is apples and pineapples; one is aiming at a mainstream market with effective niche 'hip' advertising (i.e. the female aspect of the Lilith Fair), and the other is going after the frequently-aging art-rock crowd that generally isn't trying to keep up with current trends. I'd call it a classic instance of "I listen to what's currently the flavor d'jour" versus "I listen to what I want" in the eyes of the average attendee. >lillith fair compared to robert fripp soundscapes...two different crowds >(i >know) but they both conjure up clear and concise images of what their >respective audiences will look like. which audience seems to attract more >women ? I could care less whether one venue attracts more women than the other; my life doesn't revolve around making men or women scream long and hard for a piece of my cock. >I have yet to hear loop material other than AKASH ( but i'm in AKASH so >that >is a very subjective statement - GRIN! ) that is truly from a female >perspective but AKASH is a mix of men and women. Music is music; when it panders to a particular perspective, I know it personally makes me vomit. I want to listen to quality musicians performing something worthwhile, and that is worthwhile even if the 'message' is stripped from it. Case in point was last year's "Sexworkers Art Show" that I attended in Olympia, Washington, in which the musical entertainment was booked simply because it featured sexworkers. On any other count, it was run-of-the-mill poorly performed bar-band cock rock with a male-bashing perspective. Was it entertaining? Not really. Was it good as music, devoid of political message? Hell no. Was the message delivered effectively? Not really. >AKASH goes a little further than having feminine and femininist >perspectives >by using BDSM and Fetish oriented porn, total nudity, dancers, go-go and >images of male sexuality and male agressiveness reversed to fit a very >very >free thinking but manufactured lifestyle agenda ( shameless plugs - i know )... Call me a heretic here, but the whole patriarchal oppression thing has gotten a bit old now; if I have to hear more Barbara Walkeresque inspired tripe masquerading as "herstory" one more time, I want to be paid my usual consulting fee for the experience. >and unquestionably, the look and the image and the nudity AKASH puts out >there goes with the music and attracting an audience. I'm sure it does; the people who would show up at King Velveeta's Court of Porn in Chicago for shows weren't the type to even give a shit whatsoever about what was being played; the music was an excuse to see T&A and more. Not that I have anything against that sort of thing; I'm a proud producer of pornography myself and freely admit to hosting and designing more than a few adult sites as my primary business. >but with AKASH we do a lot of spoken word/improv & we have seen a fairly >even mix at our shows where guys and girls all are represented evenly. >and >we were surprised because we thought that we would turn off a lot of >women >and men with our blatent sexual content but the response to AKASH live is >just the opposite. I'm sure it is; the suburban masses want to be titilated whenever possible. "Hey ma, can I look at the whores!" was a common sentiment expressed at the art show I attended. Personally, I prefer to be associated with a scene that is about music first and foremost, and where attendant personality, popularity, agenda, philosophy, and sex comes in distant seconds, thirds, and whatnot. If that only attracts other musicians, so be it. >Most of our audience tends to be unmarried couples and Married couples >who >are 25-35, lesbians, gays and even those overly analytical types both boy >and girl but they are typically mixed evenly in representation. Sex caters to a wider demographic split than live music; if money's the issue, sex is always a better way to go. >most loopers & this one in particular are trying really to be exclusive >from >a process and process execution point of view to only include what is >necessary to the music. I'm stil curious as to why this is a bad thing; artifice and impressive presentation can always be added later, but impressive cute antics don't make the music any better if it sucks. >but I think loop musicians unintentionally end up making a lot of loop >music >that is exclusive to the point that the final product is uninviting and >narrow. If you're referencing failing to put on a full strip show, sure..I'm sure a lot of us fail in that area. However, the same can be said for most jazz and classical performances; we're dealing with artists who are more concerned about the music than the image or the presentation thereof. If the mass audience can't deal with that, so be it. >Also, loop performances are usually executed in contexts/venues that are >not >where women tend to go and or be interested in having their musical >experience. Well, I don't expect to be playing an abortion clinic any time soon, although it'd be a fine addition to my list of strange venues for a gig. >Loop shows are usually held in venues that are off the typical beaten >musical path where women I mean the women who will actually go to shows >will >hang. There you've fractured the demographic further, destroying most of your point. >Add to that the fact that music in general does not matter that much >anymore >as it did b4 and most music is taken for granted. I'm sorry you feel that way; I couldn't present shows cogently and responsibly to my audience if I felt anything near that. For me, it's all about the music; it isn't about minority posturing (which as a member of a fruitcake religious 'cult' I could do), or in selling sex, or making money, or getting laid, or accumulating more gear, or getting endorsements, or any other reason. It's about music in the moment, without boundaries, without expectations, hell, even without looping if that's what the moment calls for. >Hard to say more than what i have why loop music is so male dominanted >cause >well...remeber this is a very subjective male opinion i have but it is >based >on observing and playing a lot of loop performances. It is a very subjective opinion, obviously attached to some sort of agenda. >I have seen women looping and i have seen women at loop shows but always >in >small numbers. By and large, women aren't represented in the greater performing musical community in numbers equal to men. It's not something I lose sleep over. >trick is with anything you do whether it is r&b, jungle, drum n bass or >trance or even gamelan music...to attract people in more proprotionate >#'s >both men and women not only do folks have to dig you but u gotta make >them >wanna be like you. even ol fripp does that...he does it very well. I hate "fans." I really do. The people who "want to be like me" just make me want to avoid live shows altogether. I'm there to perform, not to sell my soul or be someone's confessor or whatever. An individual who wants to emulate me or be like me needs serious, serious counselling. It's one thing to like what a musician is doing, and another to want to be their reincarnation and know every little bit of trivia about their personal life and performance catalog. It's a bit eerie, actually, in there are those who want people to emulate them and want to be like them in every way possible. Count me out as the spokesman for the New Looper Generation; I don't want to see my chosen pieces of gear get lauded over like great unobtainable holy grails and watch the prices skyrocket on what is essentially by current standards total crap; I don't want people to be charging $50 for bootleg videos or second-hand CDs on eBay. None of this helps me be a better musician or anything else I really want to be. >Now who other than those who have been introduced to loop music ( by a >guide >), who familiar with the artists who loop & the different styles and >variations that are in between loops would appeal to someone, a woman >that >is unfamiliar with loop oriented material..there are not that many folks >IMHO in terms of loop musicians who are good good guides to propel the >music >forward someplace beyond where it seems to always stand. I could care less whether any type of music I'm interested in or perform hits the mainstream; I won't stop playing it if it does. Anyone who wants to be a 'guide' to the masses generally makes me ill. >Not saying i am any better than others but i'm saying that the same faces >always tend to play to the same faces in loop performances ( not a bad >thing >either ) ...just a recipee for the status quo to always remain in the >loop >heiarchy. This occurs in any music scene; when I played rock, we'd see the same people. When I played noise from hell, we saw the same people. A certain demographic goes for live music, and a certain demographic does not. 93/156 == the Reverend Rob ICQ: 1280871 http://www.realm-of-shade.com .`. .`. .`. .`. http://www.qblh.com ================================================================= "I prefer not to kill people, but I'd like to destroy as much property as possible." - Grace Slick, from the Airplane FBI file ================================================================= http://www.reverendrob.com : feedback and echo MP3s