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tom wrote: "Only music concrete and program music represent anything. All other sorts of music are abstract by definition!" Great, tom, I think I'll go put on my abstract Britney Spears album ;-) The trouble with using dictionary definitions of words at times is that language constantly grows: words are appropriated and their meanings altered due to common misperception. Take the word 'JAZZ'. It was a slang term for jizz or gism (sperm) that was an epithet hurled at the new cacaphonous (!!) music played by 'uneducated' black musicians in New Orleans. Ask anyone on the street if P-Diddy is abstract and they are going to say "No". They'd say Missy Elliot is abstact. Having just played the Woodstockhause 2001 Experimental Music Festival (where I was one of the more 'inside' acts) I would say she is not. You see what I am saying? my 2 cents, Rick Walker (loop.pool)