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Kim, I've got to hand it to you for having the patience to answer these questions. People don't know what it's about until spent a month re-writing code that was supposed to take only a week tops while being sidetracked because someone decided to use anodized screws to make a ground connection or a silscreen was mis-registered or a PCB run was over-etched or an assembler mis-read an assembly drawing or your shop compressor blew a head-gasket or the paint mfg discontinued your paint and the replacement isn't compatible with your already primed parts or your 2nd-source mfg of an IC discontinued production and the main source now has a 2K pc. minimum or there are no memory chips or tantalum caps because the cell phone industry has swallowed them all... et al... and to think you could be paid 3 times as much to write an embedded guidance system for a cruise missile and take long sushi/sake lunches and paid vacations. But the music biz is so glamorous... -hs > >>>Sadly, we now don't have enough money after that to pay for another >>>software engineer and software QA person that we desperately need. >> >>You have a dramatically exaggerated idea what the cost of design is, >>particularly once amortized out over a lot of cases. > >well, I do this for a living, but maybe I'm full of crap. > > >>I'm sure you could get a designer to do a really nice front >>panel design in perhaps 50 hours of work at $100 an hour. > >it's funny how I go through this so often in my professional life. > >"It's simple!" >"it only costs $x!" >"it will only take a few days of work!" > >it always comes from somebody who's never actually done such a project. >Then somebody experienced in the field who actually has to do the work >says, "no it will take more than that, it is not so simple." That person >gets shouted down because nobody wants to hear that doom and gloom story >of >reality. Fantasy project management is so much more fun! Of course, >somehow you never get to say "I told you so" later when the project is a >complete fucking disaster. but that's how it goes, my life is a dilbert >cartoon. > > >>That's a really good designer and a lot of time and that's only >>$5000. That might get you one MONTH of a decent software >>engineer and no QA person at all. > >and > >>If two programmers and two engineers worked on the unit for two years >>and cost $60,000 each a year (including FICA, benefits and all -- this >>is below market rates) then the whole thing cost 2*2*2*$60,000 >>or $480,000 which means that each of these dozen features cost >>$40,000 to make. > >uh, what decade are you talking about? You have to go to the third world >to >find good embedded real-time software engineers or good dsp engineers or >good hardware engineers who work that cheap. Maybe you can get somebody >who >writes windows apps or java script for that price, but the salary paid >for >specialized skills and experience you need for developing something like >the EDP are at least double that. Where I live it's even higher. for good >contractors, you're talking $150 - $300/hour. > > >>The EDP had to have SOME sort of front panel design made up >>and something was printed on it. That had to cost you something. > >no, not really. I did it myself because I believed design was important, >much as you and Mark have been saying, and other people didn't. Mostly I >did it in my spare time, but I didn't get paid much anyway in those days >so >it probably wouldn't have made a difference. I used the copies of >illustrator and quark and the large font library I had "borrowed" from >the >printing company I worked at during college. I used the typesetting and >page layout skills I had acquired during that job as best I could. I >think >we spent about $25 to get films done at a service bureau for the silk >screen. There ya go, do it on the cheap or don't do it at all. Hate to >burst you guy's bubbles, but that's the way things get done in the little >niches of the music industry. > >G-Wiz was a small new division then. There wasn't a big budget, there >weren't many people working there, and the echoplex was the bottom >odd-ball >project of the pile. the FAR synth, ZIPI, Infinity controller - those >were >the glamor projects that got what there was of the attention, the >budgets, >the resources. The ugly duckling looper project seemed like a long shot. >This was before the jamman even, so nobody really was sure what to think >of >the idea. I liked it though, so I worked on it. Or I was assigned to it >because I was the lowest guy there. The Echoplex amazed us all by being >one >of the few things that actually made it to a real product, and continues >to >live long after g-wiz died. That is true because of determination and >getting things done by any means you can find. > > > >>>yet another fiscal reality check: these are small companies doing >this. >>>Tiny companies really. Or maybe tiny divisions of small companies. >>>Usually just 3 or 4 underpaid people tops, without sufficient budget. >>>There is not a lot of capital available. There is not a large market >>>available. There will not be a large return for your investment. You >have >>>to manage these issues to make money. In fact, you will be lucky not to >>>lose money. You make choices. >> >>but it's an inferior choice to drop graphic design entirely, particularly >>since you can get something really quite nice really quite cheaply. > >in my opinion, we did get something nice for cheap. Just some people are >real picky is all. It could have been worse, we could have used Matthias' >design. ;-) > > >>you have a major opportunity on your hands! >> >>Why not take the opportunity NOW that you are coming out >>with a new revision of the machine to call it "EDP 2"?! >> >>You can put a new coat of paint on the face, call it >>version II, and everyone will look at it again, even >>people who knew about it before. >> >>It'd boost flagging sales, it'd encourage people who >>already had one to get another, it'd boost people who >>are turned on to looping by the Repeater to look >>at a very different alternative. > >in fact, that has been my plan for a long time. I love deceptive >marketing >and sales tricks. Probably all we need to add is a pointy read bubble >with >"New and Improved!" in the middle. Or maybe the Digital Pro Plus XL? > > >>black and silver and white, that simple sort of thing, >>real typesetting, and it'll be done in a flash. > >Not pink and purple? haha... I'm still waiting for an explanation of >which >parts of my typesetting are not real. did I get the kerning wrong >somewhere? > >kim > > >______________________________________________________________________ >Kim Flint | Looper's Delight >kflint@loopers-delight.com | http://www.loopers-delight.com > > > http://www.starrlabs.com