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If you're moving just for the looping, I don't know why you think it'd be better in California than it is in Chicago. Chicago has a great avant scene, probably better than San Francisco, it's more than 10 times the size! The job market for developers there is probably better too, since there aren't so many unemployed developers competing for the same slots. Kevin P.S. caveats: I grew up in Chicago, I used to live in San Francisco and I currently live in Seattle, and I'm a software developer too. -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Goldsmith kevin@unitcircle.com Unit Circle Media http://www.unitcircle.com --