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Looper's Delight
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inna nother recent thread, this exchange twixt kevin g. & mr. flint yielded kim's EDP-oriented self-definition of 'granular looping'. the thread is quoted, herein, w/kim's explication at bottom: it seemed to me worthy of repeating to those interested in LoopIV who mighta missed it. so: At 05:50 PM 6/13/2002, Kevin Goldsmith wrote: > >Now I'm curious: how would things like unrounded multiply, 8th-quantized > >substitute, or SUS-insert be done on a Repeater/DL4/JamMan/Boomerang? > > >Unrounded multiply == Shorten loop, this can't be done on all loopers, >but >it can be done on the repeater Sorry, that is not correct. Unrounded Multiply is not really equal to "shorten loop". It is a lot more powerful than that. Unrounded multiply lets you multiply a loop by an arbitrary amount, set by where you tap the start and ending points. It can be shorter or longer than the original. While you are creating this new-sized loop, you can simultaneously overdub in real time. This means you could create a new loop that is .87x of the original, or 3.4x of the original, or whatever you want. Over the top of it you could then have a new overdub of this new length. Since you can start at any point of your original loop, you can effectively create a new startpoint of your loop. The original question was about how to start with an ambient loop, and then evolve it into a rhythmical loop where the rhythm may not match up with the initial loop length. This is precisely the reason why we invented the Unrounded Multiply in the EDP, because this is a very common need. The great thing about it is you don't even need to pay attention to the loop lengths at all as you are creating this. So for example, you start off creating your ambient loop however you like, creating some texture and overdubbing on it or whatever. Maybe it's 5 seconds maybe 8, whatever - it's ambient. Then gradually as you create it, some point in the loop begins to feel like the "beginning", and that is the point where you want to start something more rhythmic. This may have no relation at all to the actual startpoint of the loop, but it doesn't matter. At the point where you want to start the rhythmic section, you tap Multiply and start playing the new part. Again, you don't need to pay any attention to loop lengths, just your playing. When you reach the end of your rhythmic bit where you want to set the end of the loop, you simply tap Record. Now you have a new loop that is the length of your rhythmic phrase, with however much of the original ambient bed repeated under it as happened to fit in that space. This is a very easy and organic thing to do. and no, the Repeater does not have a function like this, and neither does any other looper. In LoopIV, we've opened up new possibilities with Unrounded Multiplies, where it has become an important part of doing LoopWindowing and granular loops. >8th Quantized Substitute == overdub rhythmically (really replace >rhythmically, but lets say overdub because it produces a similar if not >the exact effect). I've done this on the repeater, DL4, Headrush and >Boomerang, I don't own a JamMan, but I've seen it done there too. again, you are not understanding the function. The notion of "quantized" control versus free or "unquantized" control of loop functions is unique to Loop and the Echoplex, which is the only device that lets you choose. The repeater does not have any such concept. It's functions are either quantized or not, and you do not have a choice. Same with all other loopers. I find the Repeater tends towards quantizing the control actions, since it tends to be aimed more towards dance music production where precise rhythm is important. Most other loopers only have unquantized action, where functions always happen immediately. This tends to work better in ambient loops, but can be a problem when you want the tight rhythmic accuracy. The EDP lets you work either way. In LoopIV we have expanded the quantizing possibilities in some really interesting ways. It used to be in LoopIII that having quantize on only forced control actions to happen at the next cycle boundary. (in EDP-speak the cycle is the basic initial loop length set by Recording the loop, using multiply or insert lets you create longer loops that consist of multiple cycles.) LoopIV now has two new values for quantize, 8th and Loop. Quantize=Loop means that if you have multiplied the loop, any functions you do will wait until the next overall loop boundary instead of the next cycle. This can be really practical in use. Quantize=8th is interesting because it lets you subdivide the cycles for the quantizing boundaries. It actually subdivides according to the 8th/cycle parameter, so you can make it anything you want. The default for 8th/cycle is 8, so normally it subdivides to 8th notes. You could just as easily set it to 4 for quarter notes, or 5 or 13 or whatever. What this does is precisely quantize any action you do to the next 8th boundary in the cycle. This lets you do interesting things like replace exactly one 8th note, for example. Or make sure reverse always starts exactly on the beat so that your loop doesn't fall out of rhythm while going in and out of reverse. Above I think you are trying to imply that you just do the same thing manually, which is certainly possible. What you will find though is you can never be as precise as the machine (and maybe you don't want to be.) Using quantize=8th is great when you do want that machine like precision. It is also great when working with very fast tempos, where trying to tap in and out of a function in exactly one 8th note is too difficult. The results of using this function can sound a lot like using a step sequencer, and it's a lot of fun. The next confusion you have is over the functions Replace, Substitute, and Overdub. These functions have similarities, but they are not the same. Everybody knows overdub, that is where you play something and it is added on top of whatever is in the loop, and both new and old remain. Replace is a very immediate function, where the current loop audio immediately drops out when it is pressed, and whatever you play during that time replaces what was there. Only the new thing remains. Substitute is another new function in LoopIV, and is also unavailable in any other looper. Substitute is similar to replace, except the current audio in the loop doesn't disappear while you are playing the new bit. You still hear the existing stuff as you play, which can be very useful for maintaining the feel, or giving a sense of continuity to the listener. Then on the *next* repetition, the old stuff is gone and only the new stuff remains in the period where the Substitute was done. The result is like Replace, but getting there has a feeling of evolving rather than the more jarring and sudden action of Replace. When Andre talks about using Substitute with Quantize=8th, this is how he is creating a lot of his tracks that have that step-sequencer feel to them. On the fly he can drop in 8th note length fragments of whatever he is playing into the loop, ending up with what sounds like a sequence of 8th note long sample fragments. As he plays his guitar, he simply taps Substitute to grab out an 8th note fragment into the loop. Because the EDP is precisely maintaining the 8th note boundaries, he can easily grab exact 8th notes without much effort, and the result is a very tight rhythmic loop that remains tight no matter how much substituting and replacing he does. >I haven't gotten my LoopIV upgrade yet, so I don't remember what >SUS-Insert does, but if you remind me I can describe how to do it for you. Insert has always been a part of the Echoplex, and is also unique to the Echoplex. No other looper has an Insert function. Insert lets you insert new material into the loop, increasing the length of the loop in the process, all in real time. It is just like multiply in that it works with cycles, inserting in increments of the cycle length. So for example if you had a 1 bar loop, you could insert 3 more bars of new material and end up with a 4 bar loop. The difference between Insert and Multiply is that Multiply repeats the original material under you as you increase the length, while Insert does not. And like Multiply, Insert can also be used Unrounded. So you could tap Insert and play for 2 and a half cycles, then tap Record to end the Insert without rounding off to the next cycle boundary. The result would be a loop 3 and a half cycles long, that consists of the audio from the initial cycle plus the 2 and a half bars of new material that you played. With LoopIV, this is what gets us to "SUS-Insert". SUS-Insert is a part of what we call Real-Time Granular Looping. SUS is short for Sustain, and means that a function is active only while you have a button pressed, and stops when you release it. With SUS-Insert and SUS-Multiply, the functions start when you press the button down, and does an unrounded ending when you release it. So the loop length is redefined by the function. Since the function is only active while the button is pressed, a light tap on the button means you can literally activate the function for the few milliseconds of time during while the switch is actually contacting. The real-time OS of the EDP is easily able to respond to function commands at that speed, since it guarantees a very short latency of 1.5ms for any action. This means you can create loops that are made up of many tiny fragments of sound that you pull out of real-time playing, ending up with something that sounds completely different - Granular. Of course there are many other applications of this, depending on how long you press the button changes the results completely. Combining it with the quantizing functions means you can get very precise rhythms out of it. etc etc. We really have no idea! Certainly we never imagined the things Andre is now creating with these ideas, and I'm really looking forward to what the rest of you might do with it. It's brand new territory. and again, these are all completely unique to LoopIV. Nothing else does anything like it. >Note: I'm not against the EDP, heck I own one. But I've done a lot of >experimenting with other boxes to do what I need to do. The EDP can >certainly do all those things much more directly (especially with a >super-duper MIDI command center under your feet) and probably better than >they could be done with another looping unit, but that doesn't mean that >they don't share capabilities. No, that really is not correct. A very large amount of the functionality of the EDP simply does not exist anywhere else. That is especially true with LoopIV. Once you get past the beginner level functions, the EDP goes off in a very different direction than other loopers, like say the Repeater. (or you could think of it as the Repeater going off in a different direction from the EDP.) I find those two have very little in common at all, which is why you see so many people owning both. Boxes like the RC-20, DL-4, Headrush, etc, really don't even go past what we think of as the beginner functions on the edp. With those, even beginner looping stuff like feedback control is not even implemented, as you can see people scratching their heads over in another thread. >I don't really use most of the features of the EDP, and I've never gigged >with mine. I've found working with the other, simpler, boxes is usually >more than enough for what I do. I keep promising myself to spend some >serious time woodshedding with the EDP so that I can feel comfortable >with >it, but I haven't really had a chance. Well, I think that is the trick. What you have done with the EDP so far is probably just scratching the surface. That is why you are not realizing how much power is there and how much further beyond some of those other boxes it really goes. Spend some time with it, I think you will discover a lot! kim