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I'm not sure how you can say this. It's generally accepted that "delay" is an effect, no? I've got a ton of gear that lists the type of effects and "delay" is usually one of them. Is a loop not essentially a long delay with a 100% feedback? Don't think that I don't agree that we're on some slippery ground. I think the minute you take the acoustic phenomena of a string vibration, and apply a transformer and an amplifier on it, you've got an effect. You've *changed* the sound in a way. Again, it allows you to use technique in a different way than without it. I also don't understand where you draw the line between effect and music. To me it seems like one long continuum, starting with the effect of the string vibrating (insert favorite oscillation here) when struck in some way. So there, you've manipulated reality. Then you put a magnet on it and get it to change the way electrons are behaving, then you.... It really becomes one big mess. A fun mess! is both effect has effect and is music. no? i think so. Mark Sottilaro Hedewa7@aol.com wrote: > i have heared many time. > probably before did you. > is good! > has effect! > but is not effect. is music.