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> > Prophet 03 Papua New Guinea Philips 538714-2 > > Throughout the piece drummer 2 drifts about behind > > the beat, but at the start there's a brief period where > > the 2 tempi rub up against each other. > > Thanks for the great example, Andy. well, you're welcome I was searching for the "prophet" site, but found that instead. > I was also trying to think up a > concrete example for this sort of "rhythmic drift" but didn't have the >time > to go through piles of old ethnographic LPs (to which no one else would have > been able to listen anyway). mmmmmmmm...piles of ethno LPs > > Even though the audio clip is only 30 seconds, you can distinctly hear >the > two drummers fall out of phase with each other. And you're right -- it does > sound great. I agree with Sarth that it would be almost impossible for >us > (with our preconceived set of musical esthetics, conventions and > expectations) to try to execute this type of playing. possible though, didn't the Steve Reich guys get some things going? and fun to practice on your own, with left hand as drum1 and right as drum2 of course, with a couple of nearly in sync loops a related effect is easy > I'm sure most of us > would think of it as being "just plain wrong" and that the second >drummer > had no sense of time, or had otherwise stumbled. I don't think those guys have a sense of "out of time" yep, its the wrong notes that sound the best Check out Charles Ives > > Andy also mentions "a glorious out of tuneness." Great term! I too >love > that fuzzy intonation sometimes heard in various folk and traditional > performers from around the world, especially the musically "uneducated" >or > "primitive" (in the sense of "self-taught" rather than the derogatory >sense > of "backward" or "uncivilized"). in some tibetan ritual music the different elements, shawms, voices, conches and long droning trumpets are each tonally unrelated. It's possible that when the music was originally conceived the trumpets were at the "correct" pitch as a tonic for the shawms. > Another jazz example of this "glorious out > of tuneness" that I really enjoyed was Sun Ra. > I don't think any of > the musicians had bothered to tune their instruments to a common >standard. > when they played Ra's arrangements of > jazz and big-band standards it was quite noticeable. > I later learned that this same sort of out-of-tuneness is > deliberately cultivated in some musical traditions, blues piano. I used to know a guitarist who would write stuff which sounded great on his out of tune guitar. I could learn his stuff, but sounded rubbish till I put my own guitar out of tune. > for example, Indonesian > gamelan orchestras, where a pair of gongs will be tuned several cents >apart > so that when they're played together they will produce acoustical >beating, > which greatly widens the sound. yes, and each gamelan orch. is accurately tuned to it's own different scale. quote " I don't even know if he can play a Cmajor scale in tune, but everthing he plays is so fresh" -Charles Mingus about Ornette Coleman > I guess this all comes back to the idea that there are multiple ways of > hearing, and that we often need to go beyond the musical prejudices of >our > own traditions in order to appreciate other musical cultures. yes, some of those other cultures have music theory much beyond our western stuff. (and some of them don't need it) andy butler (did mention loop didn't I?;-)