Re: EDP cost/promotion/etc and some figures for thought

[mark <sine@zerocrossing.net>]

On Monday, March 31, 2003, at 12:09 AM, Andre LaFosse wrote:

> Argh, man.  Why does this happen?
>

I think this happens because we've got totally different opinions on 
this topic, and from what I can see, your very emotionally attached to 
this subject and I am less so.  I spend 5 days a week dealing directly 
with the marketing departments of companies like Oracle and Genentech 
and I've learned that you can't become too emotionally invested in such 
things.  I've spent weeks working on a campain that I thought was 
great, only to have a CEO step in at the last minute and decided that 
all of the sudden, the plan that he thought was great (that people 
created who he hired thinking they were great) he now doesn't like 
because his 2 year old niece pooped when she saw it.  The sad thing is 
I'm pretty sure we're on the same side of this argument, we just differ 
in the way we think it should/could be done.  I wish you wouldn't take 
it personally.  I think your website is amazing, and when I did have 
EDP questions and issues, I got more from it in 5 minutes than I got 
spending hours going through the manual.  I believe at that time I made 
several posts praising it.

On the other hand, I think that (warning!  OPINION ALERT) calling what 
you do "Turntablist Guitar" doesn't describe your music very well, 
although I'll say again that I totally love your music.  Now in your 
opinion "Turntablest guitar" is a good term, so OK.  I don't think your 
stupid or a jerk, I just think that the way I understand the term 
"Turntablest" and you understand it are totally different.  I grew up 
in Perth Amboy NJ and maybe you grew up in LA.  When I saw my first 
"Turntablests" circa 1981, the thing that struck me about what they 
were doing was that they were manipulating audio like I did while using 
a video jog-shuttle when editing, but in a rhythmic way.  So that's 
what it means to me.  So, this isn't about you, it's about me.  The EDP 
doesn't let you manipulate sound in that way at all, so it seems odd to 
me to use that term.  The Korg KAOSS pad does, so if Radiohead said, 
"we're doing turntablest vocals on Kid A" I'd say OK, that makes sense 
to me.  Now, it's just perspective, not a judgment call.  While down 
south I tried to order a pizza and was told, "we don't have pie, we 
just serve pizza"  It didn't change anything about the cheese sauce and 
bread that they served me, but I learned that people have different 
ways of describing the world.  Marketing is often about making HUGE 
compromises so that the largest amount of people get an idea of the 
message.  Often this sadly means watering it down a bit, which I feel 
that in some cases is better than not having the message get out at 
all.  In a perfect world, I think you're totally right, but I've found 
that the world doesn't work like that as much as we'd like.  This makes 
you angry and sad (me too, but I'm jaded) at me because you think that 
I'm saying that things should be the way I'm describing but in 
actuality I'm just saying that things are the way I'm describing 
regardless of how we feel about it.  So ultimately you're record gets 
put in the "Rock and Pop" section of the record store.  I'm not saying 
that's a good thing, but I'm saying that Virgin isn't going to put a 
"turntablest guitar" section for you, so it's best to hunker down and 
be happy you're album is being sold at all.  I swear, if I could change 
people and make them more thoughtful and open to more complete and 
complex descriptions, I would, but I'm not that optimistic about the 
world.  I'm actually glad you disagree with the status quo, I just 
think it's often better to choose better battles and use the world to 
your advantage as it exists if you can.

> You said that this mailing list, and its members, were a big problem.
> You said the problem was that people were hoarding the technology and
> the techniques, keeping it to themselves and this list.  You said this
> alleged attitude was hindering the popularization of the technology.

I never said that this mailing list and it's members were a problem at 
all.  I disagreed with some of them and have agreed with others.  Last 
gig I played with Jon El-Bizri he said, "Oh, I've got one of those m 
series Steinbergers (the same one we both have!) and I think it sounds 
terrible."  I wasn't mad at him.  I simply said, "Oh, I love the tone." 
and went about the show.  We're friends and still talk and I'm sure 
we'll do shows again in the future.

What I think is a problem is that you constantly generalize things I 
say about a specific person's opinion or topic as to being the thoughts 
and feelings of everyone here.  It's making me really pissed at you.  I 
wish you'd please stop.  From where I am it seems that you are hell 
bent on painting me as someone who's against the Looper's Delight list 
and it's members, instead of someone who's been a contributer to the 
list since 92.  (Look at me, I'm old school!)

> You then arbitrarily lashed out at people who didn't agree with you on 
> a
> thread that's been dead half a year, implying that anyone who diagreed
> with you or Matthias on that issue was ignorant and willfully opposed 
> to
> popularizing the stuff this mailing list is (ostensibly) dedicated to.

I feel I'm right about some things and others are wrong.  So what?  I 
said I was pissed at how people refused to make any compromise about 
how Gibson's new looping site depicted loopers to the point where 
nothing happened.  Who won?  I still feel that way, although it 
wouldn't stop me from thinking that a lot of you that disagreed with me 
are good people.  Hell, I don't like a lot of people's music here, but 
I'd never let that effect the way I thought of them as people.  I don't 
even like all the music I've made!

> I replied to you to point out that a lot of people on this list are
> working our asses off to popularize this stuff, and doing a pretty
> decent job of it overall.  And that to have people like yourself make
> the kinds of accusations that you have is seriously hurtful and
> offensive to some of us.

Seems to be only you Andre.  I think your site is great and I've said 
so several times.  If I said, "Andre's doing a bad job promoting 
looping" I could see your point.  I've never said that.  I disagreed 
with your thoughts about coming up with a broad term for making music 
with looping devices, but so what?  I still disagree with you.  I 
probably like a lot of stuff that you hate, and visa versa.  Welcome to 
my United States of Whatever.  If this was a dictatorship and you were 
the dictator you could just have me killed, but instead, try just 
saying, "Mark, I totally think you're wrong." and I'll say, "OK, I 
think you're wrong."  Debate with me, don't fight with me.

> Is that honestly difficult to understand, man?  Do you genuinely not
> understand how you come across in these things?  Can you not see what a
> phenomenal drag it is for some of us?

I'm shocked that in the USA someone could react so strongly from an 
opposing opinion regardless of how emphatically it's put forth.  Have 
your thoughts and opinions never been challenged?  You're taking it so 
personally, I don't know why.

>
> I don't want to filter out other people's ideas, Mark - not in email 
> and
> not in life.  I want to hear what other people have to say, think it
> over, and try to learn from it.  And if they say something that I feel
> is totally off base, then I might feel compelled to offer my own
> experience back, in the hopes that it might help illuminate an attitude
> that seems needlessly dark and unsupportive of themselves and their 
> peers.

Right, but what you're doing is not that.  You're confusing debate with 
conflict.

> It's a very fucked up world right now, and it would be great to think
> that someone like yourself would be willing to think about the impact
> their words has on people, rather than telling someone like me to just
> ignore it.  But if you're honestly happy in your attitude, the way it
> impact your life and those of the people around you, then maybe you
> don't want to entertain a different point of view.
>
> And you don't have to...  but it sure is a drag to be on the receiving
> end of, man.
>
> Asking you to think about this may be too much to ask, but I guess
> that's what I'm doing anyway.
>

No it's not too much to ask.  I've got free will (at least is seems I 
have some) and I could delete your email before reading it, or put a 
filter that blocks it, but I won't.  I'm happy to have this debate with 
you.  Frankly, when I first saw this email this morning I didn't read 
it because I knew I'd be cranky and pissy.  I read it later, then 
replied later after thinking about it and giving myself some emotional 
distance.

Heh, as a perfect end to this email, iTunes decided to randomly pick 
"Relent" by Andre LaFosse to play.  Check it out on his website fellow 
loopers!  It's a great tune even if I'd never call it "turntablest 
guitar"

Truce?

Mark Sottilaro