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Cranky Greg

Could we kill this thread? It's going nowhere, and we aren't going to
convince Kim to selling us all $50 Echoplexes with these paper napkin

We need something more powerful - perhaps we could feed his wolverines to
the poor?


http://www.groovetronica.com - "Well, it hasn't made it into our playlist,
I'm afraid. It's summer so there are no djs here to listen to and play
music, so we're just playing automated music right now."

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg House" <ghunicycle@yahoo.com>
To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Cranky Kim

> --- Kim Flint <kflint@loopers-delight.com> wrote:
> > Just because something is beyond your budget doesn't mean it doesn't
> > well. The Echoplex price might be more than you can afford, yet at that
> > price they sold every single one they were able to make. That makes it
> > really difficult to understand how the price was too high. It's an
> > argument to say it was too low.
> Or to say that they didn't make enough.
> > >I base that on the ratio of people I hear talking about how cool the
> > >is and how many actually have one.
> >
> > That's sort of anecdotal.
> It's absolutely anecdotal. I don't do market survey studies on this, but 
> talk to a lot of people, especially about things that I'm interested in.
> > Look at it this way. They put the product out in
> > the mid-90's. The sales have been good enough to support the company to
> > this day, as it is their only product. It's available in all the major
> > catalogs, it's in stores, and advertised in guitar magazines. In the
> > musical instrument industry, that's pretty successful.
> I've never seen one in a store. I've only seen it in one catalog
> Friend), and then only recently. I've never seen anyone actually using 
> person. Yeah, I know...anecdotal.
> > >  As it is, the price alone relegates it to specialty market status.
> >
> > They only cost about $450! That's near the low end of music gear
> Not according to the catalogs I look at. I see lots of "low end" stuff
> pretty powerful these days. Of course, most are missing that "one trick"
> this "one trick pony" provides.
> > Which part of "it sold out" isn't clear? They made all the ones they 
> > capacity to make. They all got sold. 100% capacity used, 100% sold.
> Very efficient, but that really doesn't say anything about the market. If
I make
> 10 widgets and I sell them all for $1000, that doesn't mean I couldn't
have sold
> 10,000 widgets at $500 if I'd made them. It also doesn't mean that I
> have sold 30 widgets at $1000 each, if I'd made that many. It only says I
> to find 10 people desperate enough for my widget to buy all I made at the
price I
> sold it at. It doesn't speak to the rest of the market.
> > I guess I'm baffled how you reach that conclusion. Look at the prices 
> > other gear. Mid-range synths and samplers cost much more than the
> > High end gear in other categories costs WAY more.
> >
> > So here you have what many people consider a high-end looper in the
> > echoplex. The best there is in many people's eyes, and it costs $800.
> > Alright, fine, you have to get two for stereo, but that also gives you
> > nice multi-loop functions. That's $1600 for a high-end stereo looper.
> > compare to street prices of other top  gear:
> >
> > Eventide Eclipse:       $2000
> > Eventide Orville:       $5000
> > Eventide DSP7000:       $3400
> > Korg Triton 88key:      $3400
> > Korg Triton rack:       $1450
> > Korg D16XD:             $2000
> > Yamaha dig piano:       $3500
> > Yamaha 9000:            $3200
> > Yamaha Motif 88key:     $2800
> > Yamaha AW2816:          $1800
> > Yamaha RS7000:          $1400
> > TC finalizer:           $2400
> > TC fireworx:            $1760
> > TC G-Force:             $1440
> > TC M3000:               $1500
> > Gibson Les Paul Custom: $3200
> > Access Virus C          $1500
> > Nord Modular:           $1450
> > Roland VS2480           $3800
> > roland V-Synth          $2300
> > roland Fantom s88:      $2900
> > roland xv-5080          $2000
> > roland mc-909:          $1500
> > Kurzweil K2661: $2400
> > Lexicon PCM-81: $2000
> > Lexicon MPXG2:          $1450
> >
> > You see? It sits right in there pretty well. None of that stuff is
> > affordable for you, yet it all sells well.
> I don't think that's a fair comparison. With the exception of the Les 
> hand built craft item, not a mass produced piece of electronic gear), all
> things perform more then one function. Do you think anyone would spend
$1440 for
> a TC G-force if it only did delays? Apparently TC didn't, since they make
> D-2, which sells for about $350. Likewise, with the exception of the Les
> they all employ current state of the art hardware technology, not stuff
> 15 years ago.
> re: repeater
> > It was advertised in Guitar player and keyboard for about a year before
> > came out, and reviewed in all those magazines.
> And frankly, I think that was part of the problem. They advertised it too
> when it wasn't available, and people got tired of waiting and moved on.
> re: electrix scraps product line to produce repeater
> > it sounded like desperation to me. Liquidate everything in a last ditch
> > effort to get cash.
> Oh yeah, obviously. But again, that doesn't have anything to do with the
> viability of their product, or the price they sold it at (which I thought
> what we were discussing). It just says they were undercapitolized for the
> venture.
> > One major mistake they made, related to another thread,
> > is not realizing just how hard it is to develop a functional looper.
> > had no idea what they were getting into and didn't devote enough
> > or time to it. So it was a year late, and they ran out of money.
> Yes, totally agreed. It obviously was a bigger effort then they had
> >
> > >  My
> > >observation from talking to people is that a lot of them really like
> > >idea of
> > >an advanced looper until they hear the price. At that point they say
> > >like "I think I can probably be happy enough with my DL4" or something
> > >like that.
> >
> > if that is all the functions they need and they just want to dabble in
> > looping a bit, then they are right. They would be happy with the DL4 
> > that is what they should buy. Why should they start out with the
> > product? As they learn more about looping they may start wanting a
> > end product with more features. Then the price of an echoplex might be
> > worth it to them.
> I'm just saying that people would like a few more features then the DL4,
> without having to pay several hundred more dollars for them. There 
> to be anything in that marketplace. Is it worth $600 to get a feedback
> for your loop? One feature? I think there's a market for something with
> looping capability of a DL4 or EchoPro with just another feature 
> control) or so. If the Echo Pro had feedback, I'd have one already. As it
> that makes it a tough decision, since the rest of it looks pretty good,
but it's
> lacking that one thing I really like.
> Greg
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