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Could we kill this thread? It's going nowhere, and we aren't going to convince Kim to selling us all $50 Echoplexes with these paper napkin arguments. We need something more powerful - perhaps we could feed his wolverines to the poor? bIz ------------ http://www.groovetronica.com - "Well, it hasn't made it into our playlist, I'm afraid. It's summer so there are no djs here to listen to and play music, so we're just playing automated music right now." ------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg House" <ghunicycle@yahoo.com> To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Cranky Kim > --- Kim Flint <kflint@loopers-delight.com> wrote: > > > Just because something is beyond your budget doesn't mean it doesn't sell > > well. The Echoplex price might be more than you can afford, yet at that > > price they sold every single one they were able to make. That makes it > > really difficult to understand how the price was too high. It's an easier > > argument to say it was too low. > > Or to say that they didn't make enough. > > > >I base that on the ratio of people I hear talking about how cool the thing > > >is and how many actually have one. > > > > That's sort of anecdotal. > > It's absolutely anecdotal. I don't do market survey studies on this, but >I do > talk to a lot of people, especially about things that I'm interested in. > > > Look at it this way. They put the product out in > > the mid-90's. The sales have been good enough to support the company to > > this day, as it is their only product. It's available in all the major > > catalogs, it's in stores, and advertised in guitar magazines. In the > > musical instrument industry, that's pretty successful. > > I've never seen one in a store. I've only seen it in one catalog (Musicians > Friend), and then only recently. I've never seen anyone actually using >one in > person. Yeah, I know...anecdotal. > > > > As it is, the price alone relegates it to specialty market status. > > > > They only cost about $450! That's near the low end of music gear pricing. > > Not according to the catalogs I look at. I see lots of "low end" stuff that's > pretty powerful these days. Of course, most are missing that "one trick" that > this "one trick pony" provides. > > > Which part of "it sold out" isn't clear? They made all the ones they >had > > capacity to make. They all got sold. 100% capacity used, 100% sold. > > Very efficient, but that really doesn't say anything about the market. If I make > 10 widgets and I sell them all for $1000, that doesn't mean I couldn't have sold > 10,000 widgets at $500 if I'd made them. It also doesn't mean that I couldn't > have sold 30 widgets at $1000 each, if I'd made that many. It only says I managed > to find 10 people desperate enough for my widget to buy all I made at the price I > sold it at. It doesn't speak to the rest of the market. > > > I guess I'm baffled how you reach that conclusion. Look at the prices >of > > other gear. Mid-range synths and samplers cost much more than the Echoplex. > > High end gear in other categories costs WAY more. > > > > So here you have what many people consider a high-end looper in the > > echoplex. The best there is in many people's eyes, and it costs $800. > > Alright, fine, you have to get two for stereo, but that also gives you some > > nice multi-loop functions. That's $1600 for a high-end stereo looper. Let's > > compare to street prices of other top gear: > > > > Eventide Eclipse: $2000 > > Eventide Orville: $5000 > > Eventide DSP7000: $3400 > > Korg Triton 88key: $3400 > > Korg Triton rack: $1450 > > Korg D16XD: $2000 > > Yamaha dig piano: $3500 > > Yamaha 9000: $3200 > > Yamaha Motif 88key: $2800 > > Yamaha AW2816: $1800 > > Yamaha RS7000: $1400 > > TC finalizer: $2400 > > TC fireworx: $1760 > > TC G-Force: $1440 > > TC M3000: $1500 > > Gibson Les Paul Custom: $3200 > > Access Virus C $1500 > > Nord Modular: $1450 > > Roland VS2480 $3800 > > roland V-Synth $2300 > > roland Fantom s88: $2900 > > roland xv-5080 $2000 > > roland mc-909: $1500 > > Kurzweil K2661: $2400 > > Lexicon PCM-81: $2000 > > Lexicon MPXG2: $1450 > > > > You see? It sits right in there pretty well. None of that stuff is > > affordable for you, yet it all sells well. > > I don't think that's a fair comparison. With the exception of the Les >Paul (a > hand built craft item, not a mass produced piece of electronic gear), all those > things perform more then one function. Do you think anyone would spend $1440 for > a TC G-force if it only did delays? Apparently TC didn't, since they make the > D-2, which sells for about $350. Likewise, with the exception of the Les Paul, > they all employ current state of the art hardware technology, not stuff designed > 15 years ago. > > re: repeater > > > It was advertised in Guitar player and keyboard for about a year before it > > came out, and reviewed in all those magazines. > > And frankly, I think that was part of the problem. They advertised it too early, > when it wasn't available, and people got tired of waiting and moved on. > > re: electrix scraps product line to produce repeater > > it sounded like desperation to me. Liquidate everything in a last ditch > > effort to get cash. > > Oh yeah, obviously. But again, that doesn't have anything to do with the market > viability of their product, or the price they sold it at (which I thought was > what we were discussing). It just says they were undercapitolized for the > venture. > > > One major mistake they made, related to another thread, > > is not realizing just how hard it is to develop a functional looper. They > > had no idea what they were getting into and didn't devote enough resources > > or time to it. So it was a year late, and they ran out of money. > > Yes, totally agreed. It obviously was a bigger effort then they had anticipated. > > > > > > My > > >observation from talking to people is that a lot of them really like the > > >idea of > > >an advanced looper until they hear the price. At that point they say something > > >like "I think I can probably be happy enough with my DL4" or something > > >like that. > > > > if that is all the functions they need and they just want to dabble in > > looping a bit, then they are right. They would be happy with the DL4 >and > > that is what they should buy. Why should they start out with the high-end > > product? As they learn more about looping they may start wanting a higher > > end product with more features. Then the price of an echoplex might be > > worth it to them. > > I'm just saying that people would like a few more features then the DL4, but > without having to pay several hundred more dollars for them. There >doesn't appear > to be anything in that marketplace. Is it worth $600 to get a feedback control > for your loop? One feature? I think there's a market for something with the > looping capability of a DL4 or EchoPro with just another feature >(feedback > control) or so. If the Echo Pro had feedback, I'd have one already. As it is, > that makes it a tough decision, since the rest of it looks pretty good, but it's > lacking that one thing I really like. > > Greg > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > >