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I realize now that my post came off a bit as a troll, and I wish I had been more articulate. Eric and Andre make some excellent points, but I've been thinking about this a lot, and I still think hardware loopers may be on the way out. I'd assume that the cost of development of a hardware looper is many times over the cost of developing software, and I'd really be surprised to see any new developments in hardware loopers. On the other hand, software loopers seem to be growing both in number and capability. If people haven't checked out Elottronix XL (sorry for the mis-spelling in my previous post), they really should. It's developer describes it as a Frippertronics emulation: http://www.uv.es/~ruizcan/p_vst.htm Two simultaneous 80 second maximum "sound on sound" delays with stereo pan and filters. All parameters controllable through midi. Both the delays and pan sync easily to the host. It's not a EDP clone (I wish it was), but it has some advantages in how well it integrates as a VST plugin in a DAW or host program. It's stable and it's free. On my Celeron laptop and can run several instances of it simultaneously, and I'm getting 6ms latentcy with my IndigoIO sound card. There are other free looping programs as well: Ambiloop, Loopitch and the UNIX based edp emulation Andre mentioned. If we froze the current feature set of the software loopers, then hardware loopers are clearly superior. I'm anticipating, though, that feature set will grow. Hardware loopers can also wear out, break and get stolen; serious considerations as they become increasingly expensive to replace. --- Art Simon http://art.simon.tripod.com http://artsimon.iuma.com simart@null.net --------- Original Message --------- DATE: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 20:39:34 From: Andre LaFosse <altruist@earthlink.net> To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com Cc: >Art Simon wrote: > >> As a former owner of an edp owner and a current repeater owner, >> I'm wondering if the handwriting is on the wall for hardware loopers. > >Unless that handwriting includes the complete, bug-free code to >perfectly emulate every known hardware looper, with zero input and >processing latency in a computer-based environment, then I'd say no. :) > >> I recently downloaded AudioMulch and Ellotronix XL(both free!) >> and was impressed by what I could do. While they don't have the >> same capabilites as the edp and repeater, they are equally powerful >> in their own way. > >The EDP and Reepater themselves don't have the same capabilities, so >lumping them together in comparison to freeware softs is doing them both >a bit of a disservice. > >I did a Google search for "Ellotronix XL" and only found six results, >none of them in English, so I can't talk about that. As far as >Audiomulch, it does look like a very impressive package for what it >does. But what it does is coming from a totally different paradigm than >something like an EDP, and comparing the two of them against each other >is like comparing a Hammond organ to a software synthesizer. > >> So I'm thinking, should I sell my repeater? > >If you can do everything you want to do with the Repeater in software >instead, and are happy to be tied to a computer for your looping, then >maybe so. > >> Have hardware loopers become valuble collector's items while >> software loopers are becoming more powerful musician's tools? > >No! > >For one thing (and to reiterate the first idea), there's no direct >competition for something like an Echoplex in the software world, >because there's no software that does everything the Echoplex already >does (and was doing 10 years ago, for that matter). > >Sure, you could hypothetically sit down with Max/MSP or Reaktor or some >other modular system, and try to assemble your own version of it, or you >could write the code from scatch. That's assuming you're willing to >spend however many months or years it will take to get all of the >functions intact (and usable in rapid succession, in a stable, bug-free >manner) before you can actually stop building your instrument and start >making music with it. It also assumes you'll be able to live with >whatever latency your software and interface will impose on both your >input audio, and your actual post-input looping functions. > >There's apparently a UNIX emulation of the EDP LoopIII software, written >by a guy who read the EDP manual but never actually used one in person. >I'd be interested to know how stable and bug-free it is, what kind of >latency it has, and what sorts of possibilities exist for interfaces >(both in terms of getting audio in and out of the computer, and in terms >of controlling the looping functions) for something like this. But I've >never heard of someone using it, so it doesn't seem to be serious >competition as of yet. > >> My guitar isn't worth more than a month's rent--should my looper be? > >If your looper is a program like Audiomulch, MAX, Ableton Live, or any >other piece of pure software, then a true "cost benefit analysis" needs >to take the full package into consideration. > >So, beyond the cost of the software itself, you need to budget for: > >- The computer itself (and if you're looking at using this in a true >performance situation, you need to assume you're running a laptop) > >- Sufficient RAM for the computer to juggle all of the necessary >functions in real time > >- An audio interface that can pipe your input into the software, and >pipe the computer sound back out > >- A controller that can send all of the necessary commands to make your >software do what it needs to, and can send the kinds of commands that >particular piece of software can recognize. (And, again, if you're a >performer, one that can do so in a manner that's efficient for the >player, and hopefully elegant for the audience) > >Ultimately, though, this is all kind of academic. The bottom line is: >what do you want to do, and how are you willing to do it? > >A rock bassist who wants to loop backing chords to solo over while he >plays in a bar isn't going to need a program like Audiomulch. Ask him >if he'd rather spend several thousand dollars on a laptop rig, or less >than $300 for a DL4 or Boss looper. > >Likewise, a programmer who wants to have four seperate loops of >different lengths running simultaneously, with individual volume and >feedback controls, sending each loop to a seperate processing path and >audio output, isn't going to be satisfied with one Echoplex. (Nor >should he be, because that's not what the EDP was designed to do in the >first place.) > >Some day hardware loopers may be completely eliminated by software. But >I don't want to put my music making on indefinite hold while I wait for >someone to emulate what's already readily available here and now. >Especially not when there's still so much I have to learn about my >Echoplex. > >--Andre LaFosse >http://www.altruistmusic.com > > ____________________________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10