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Dear Bill, thinking about ecology by thinking about what you call the carbon footprint of some entity you acquire, and then taking guesses at it by making assumptions about (and only about) its transport route from the manufacturer to the end customer (which is, in the example, you), is actually oversimplifying the case. The carbon release from the transport from the harbour to your doorstep is but a small factor in the total ecobalance of a thing (let's stick with the Roland amplifier for that). Carbon dioxide emission is - although indirectly - one of the causes of global warming, along with many others. Apart from looking at a carbon dioxide emission balance for the trip alone, to really be able to help the environment you would need to base your buying decisions on the total ecobalance over lifetime for the device, which would be: * which environmental factors went into development, manufacturing, sales * which happen over usage lifetime * which happen after end-of life Even if we only look at the transport from an international harbour to your doorstep as in your example, you'd need to analyze the ecobalance of the entire customer transaction process, which would include: * direct entropy generation during the process (which would e.g. include the aircon running in your shop in SoCal) * electricity consumed (which has a lot to do with the efficieny e.g. of the IT infrastructure, and also from which kind of power plant you draw the electricty) * actual fuel consumption and emissions for all transport processes (this would also include you driving by car to the music store and back in a car that is possibly not up to date both with regard to low fuel consumption and toxic emissions) * human ressources involved in the process Are you able to do these calculations (meaning do you have both the necessary data and the know-how to work with it)? And if so, are you willing and able to do the calculations for everything you buy? I won't even start to go into detail about the lifetime total balance mentioned above - but it suffices to say that stuff you hear, e.g. from marketing brochures, doesn't tell you what you need to know. One great example is Toyota's Prius hybrid car, praised as an ecological breakthrough and solution to all the problems. One thing is that manufacturing that car requires large amounts of Nickel, which is mined in Canada (with a severe impact on the environment), then transported to Europe for use in making semifinished parts, then to China for making the batteries (also with severe environmental impact), then to Japan for making the car, which is shipped back to North America. As a result of this, the ecobalance of the Prius is far inferior to that of your run-of-the-mill car. But even with regard to fuel consumption, in a proper lifetime analysis in comparison to a modern, fuel-efficient car with conventional power train (say, e.g., a BMW 118d), the Toyota looses even only regarding the co2 emissions for driving it. And in specific situations, it will even loose to a 430bhp BMW M3 sports car (see Top Gear's S11E1 episode for a demonstration of that). Not wanting to sound like a complete dickhole, but have you ever compared the life ecobalance of a solid state guitar amp to that of a tube amp? ;) Your second point is also interesting and well taken, although all the same relatively complicated. In typical federal countries and other unions, there's mostly some kind of communist cash flow (e.g. financial equalization) between states (which, I'd believe, would happen from California to some mid-west states), which is based on that state's GNP. Now, if you live in a (relatively) prosperous state, will it help more to buy locally (thus increasing the local GNP, which will increase the state's spending on financial equalization), or will it help more to buy in the mid-west (thus increasing their local GNP, thus decreasing financial equalization and helping your local state)? It's interesting insofar as in some cases, selling online is a viable and sometimes the only business option for businesses in structurally weaker regions. Of course, most of the time states like California, Bavaria etc. would benefit most if the would secede from the U.S./Germany/EU, but failing that, it will help in the long run to empower the structurally weaker regions. (I have been buying online for years in a shop located in one of Germany's least developed regions near Berlin. I once had a long chat with their managing director, and he basically told me that the local customers usually were of a kind that they would shop for e.g. guitar strings and, if they once really had a lot of money to spare, for a €30 effects pedal. Short of being forced to declare bankrupcy, his resurgence came with online sales to other, economically stronger regions, which in the long run helps everybody in a global market. This small shop, short of going out of business, now employs a lot of people, which in turn earn good money and use that to buy...stuff from California, which helps the economy there, which will allow you...you get the message). Economical systems usually are able to properly regulate itself. Reasons for that not working are all the things which are government-enforced like taxes, financial equalization, unions and similar awkward concepts. It is perfectly understandable that you may want to support your local dealership (for whatever reason, be it that you like to go to a store instead of ordering online, or that you work at that dealership or that you like the people). But as above, optimizing your buying strategy in order to be in line with non-local economical considerations is somewhat...complex. Best, Rainer ----- original Nachricht -------- Betreff: OT reducing your carbon footprint, helping the state you live in Gesendet: Mi, 03. Sep 2008 Von: William Walker Dear list, I know this is off topic but I feel it’s relevant. I know many of you engage in on line buying, as do I, though I’m starting to have second thoughts about my on line habits. Like many of you, the lure of rock bottom prices and free freight, as well as the convenience of not leaving your house, and in some cases the distance from a music store making that impractical anyway, is hard to pass up. But in many cases I believe we are creating a bigger carbon footprint by ordering on line simply by creating another trip the product has to make before it gets to our door step. Here is why, if a retail store like the one I work at part time in Santa Cruz orders some Roland or Line 6 products, they are shipped directly to our store from their facilities in southern California, which is one of the main ports on the west coast for Asian made electronics. If I were to order the same product on line from, for example, Musicians Friend, that Roland or line 6 product would have first been trucked or flown to a warehouse in the Midwest from So Cal, before being trucked or flown to your door step. If I had gotten it from Sweetwater it would have been even further. Conversely if you bought a Danish made TC electronics processor from MF and you lived on the East Coast, you would have bought a product that would have arrived by cargo ship or jet from Europe, to an east coast warehouse, and flown or trucked half way across the country before for showing up at your door step. In either example, that’s several thousand mile’s of extra jet or diesel fuel, pardon the hyperbole. So even though we the customers are saving money with the free freight and the no sales tax, it would appear that we are in our own small ways, increasing the carbon footprint, by burning more fossil fuel. Also, I have reason to believe it won’t be long before the days of Free freight will be gone, rising fuel surcharges from carriers like UPS and FedEx, are going to put the squeeze on the big mail order houses to the point where they will stop offering the free freight incentive, so read the fine print as it may not be that obvious when it happens. Another negative byproduct of buying online is it really does hurt your local and state economy. In California, where we pay one of the nation’s highest sales tax at 8.25%, the advent of discount online mega stores has had a crippling effect on our states economy. Not just in music retail, but pretty much all retail sales. I see it first hand at Union Grove Music where I work and I hear the same stories from all of the other retailers and sales reps I talk to, even places like Guitar Center that for years have been able to undercut the sales of smaller stores like us., they are losing business to on line retailers. California has had a several week impasse over creating a new budget, Why? I believe in part it’s because the state is broke and everyone is fighting for the crumbs. What is a major source of revenue for the state of California? You guessed it, sales tax, and they are thinking of raising it again which will screw local business even more, as the state hemorrhages more tax revenue from people avoiding it through on line buying. I know many of you might not care and actually I really didn’t for a number of years. Lets face it, getting something really cool, really cheap, and avoiding paying sales tax is some what of a Red badge of Courage among musicians, that has a subtle rebellious undertone of sticking it to da man. I think we all at one time or another have conspiratorially bragged to our friends about the steal we got on such in such and item. Its human nature and for many of us also a necessity to find the bargain. But as I drive the streets of the city in which I live, the roads are getting bumpier, both literally and figuratively (crumbling infrastructure anyone?) and I have made a personal decision to buy on line only when I absolutely can’t find something I need locally, even if it ends up costing me a bit more, and I urge all of you to think about the ramifications of buying on line in the bigger picture, not just for yourself, but the community and State where you live. I know some of you can’t stand going in to music stores so I know I won’t convince you of anything J but those of you who care about having a locally owned shop where you can actually pick something up and try it out before forking over your hard earned shekels, I urge you to support your local music, or CD, or appliance, or computer store for that matter, and start looking at ways to Green you GAS. Sorry for being such a gloomy Gus, but now is the time to start thinking about these kinds of issues and getting proactive an individual as well as collective way Thanks Bill --- original Nachricht Ende ----