Re: OT West African/African Diaspora rhythms: 3/4, 4/4, 6/8, 12/8

[andy butler <akbutler@tiscali.co.uk>]

Rick Walker wrote:
>  Hi Andy,
> Nice points that you make.
> 
> My feeling however is that the Western perspective which assigns lesser 
> value to rhythm than
> melody, harmony or lyric  has a very serious flaw when it comes to 
>notation , and that is 
> that it doesn't have the
> concept of the 'sub-pulse'

That sounds interesting.
Can't see how it's a problem.
Just pick the time sig that makes the prettiest notation.

> 
> To write African rhythms in 12/8 does not give enough information about 
> how the music is felt.

I'd certainly agree with that, but then neither does "4/4" swing.
...afaik no notation system ever came close to doing that.

In some cases 12/8 has a distinct advantage, and that's when
some of the notes are swung, and some are straight.

> 
> It is true that the percentage of swing (how late the second 8th note is 
> in every beat) really effects the feel
> of things.   In this case,   it can be a more flexible map to write 8th 
> notes with 'swing' over the top of them.

Any examples to illustrate?

Maybe this relates to the Eastern European notion
of "short" and "long" dance steps.

Actually the drummer I play with has been criticised 
at college because his swing wasn't bang on 66.7%.
( don't worry, I was able to re-assure him)


> I guess in the end, it's whatever floats your boat, but I'm a stickler 
> for rhythmic accuracy as much as is possible
> with an obviously imperfect system.

neither "4/4 swing" nor "12/8" tells the whole story
in every situation.
I'd use whichever option produced the performance I
wanted. 
When I used 12/8 it certainly drew the players attention
to the fact that I was hoping for an accurate rendition.

andy butler

ps google came up with this
cf

"Bilmes (1993) developed a model for groove-based expressive timing that 
features two simultaneous isochronous pulses, one at the foot-tapping 
tactus level (with a period typically between 300 and 800 ms), and 
another, the temporal atom or tatum, at the smallest operative subdivision 
of that pulse (typically 80 to 150 ms)"