Re: Live/Mobius Detente

[Phil Clevenger <phil.clevenger@gmail.com>]

What a great piece, thank you Jeff for the information density :)

SO it sounds to me like what I have going is kind of a successful cheat... fooling the host with my double NoteOn scheme. This allows me to map to any of the exposed params of the Echoloop VST using Ableton's MIDI Learn model, and I guess that means the specific note sent for any given command is meaningless - I just need to map a switch to a function via Learn. This would explain certain behavioral anomalies, for instance, I've been puzzled as to why the Echoloop VST responds to controller commands no matter what incoming MIDI channel I've designated in the VST.

It also sounds like the better way to do this would be to send the specifically proscribed EDP/Echoloop MIDI Note commands unmolested from the controller directly to the plugin; this is I think what Per and Ricky were advocating with their solution from before. I will try that again this evening...

Super helpful info, many thanks Jeff :)

Phil :)

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 10:27 PM, Jeff Larson <jeff.larson@sailpoint.com> wrote:

Ah, now we're getting somewhere!

The vast majority of VST plugins have a relatively small number
of parameters and they are almost always thought of as either knobs
that sweep through a range of values or a toggle switch that is either
on or off.  For example a typical distortion plugin would
have knobs for Gain, Trebble, Mid, Bass and a toggle switch for Boost.

You typically associate parameters that are visually displayed as knobs
with MIDI continuous controllers so you can sweep through the possible
values.  And you typically associate parameters that are visually
displayed as toggle switches with MIDI notes, program changes, or CCs
where 0 means Off and >0 means On.

Mobius is an unusual plugin because most of what you need to do
with MIDI is execute functions like Record, Overdub, etc.  You can
expose Mobius functions as plugin parameters, but the host needs
to treat them like a MOMENTARY switch rather than TOGGLE switch.

Some hosts like Mainstage can do this, but it appears that Live
will always treat parameters associated with a MIDI Note as a toggle
switch.  The first press will set the parameter to the highest value
and the second press will set it to the lowest value.

This is probably why Phil's double-note-on approach worked.  The first
Note On sets the parameter to 1 but the Note Off is ignored.
The second Note On sets the parameter to 0.  The plugin can't tell
what MIDI events are being used, it just needs to see the parameter
value to go 1 and then back down to 0 within 1/2 second.

This is one of several reasons why I don't like using Mobius
with host parameter mappings.  Most hosts simply don't know
how to deal with a plugin that is a combination of an instrument
(takes MIDI notes, produces audio) and an effect (takes MIDI CCs,
takes audio and produces audio).  This debate comes up on the VST
developer forums at least once a year and it is still poorly
understood by the major host vendors.

The main advantage of letting Mobius handle the MIDI bindings
is that it will behave exactly like it should in any host that
can pass through MIDI unmolested, and you can change hosts
or use Mobius standalone without having to redo all the mappings.

There are some reasons you might want to use host mappings though.
Hosts may support non-MIDI controllers, specialy designed
control surfaces that need more than simple MIDI mapping to use
effectively, and some support scaling options so a simple MIDI
CC sweep from 0 to 127 can be sent to the plugin with something
other than a linear slope.  But that's useful only for Mobius controls
like Input, Output, Feedback, Pan, etc. not for functions.

Jeff


_______________________________________
From: Kevin Cheli-Colando [billowhead@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 8:28 PM
To: Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com
Subject: Live/Mobius Detente

Well, after following Jeff's last message, I think I have gotten
Mobius to work in Live (collective sigh?).

I was following the initial advice of a Live advocate who was very
much of the notion that mapping everything in live was the way to go.
Except when its not apparently.

So, for now, I am ready to start manually entering my commands in
Mobius and I will let you know that its all working perfectly soon.
At least that's the plan.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Kevin

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