Re: Interesting...

[Alex Stahl <alex@pixar.com>]

ltct@concentric.net typed:

>["Jack-hammer time" is] also at the root of the rhythmic, cyclic music of
>shamanistic ceremonies and similar rituals which send
>listeners and purveyers into hypnotic states, where time
>seems to disappear.

After all of the recent posts encouraging intellectual honesty, what are
your sources for your statement that entrainment is at the root of timeless
music?

The time perception literature I've read lately is a bit more humble,
suggesting
that we don't really know the psychological or neurological reasons behind
widely reported variations in subjective duration experience. A number of
experiments have demonstrated, using "the validity of the senses", that
these changes do indeed occur, and I suspect that most people on this list
have first-hand experience from looping. But anecdotal first-hand
experience is not proof, and stating it as such is getting awfully close to
"pseudo-science drivel". Furthermore, I believe there is rational evidence
in vision studies that perception and feelings overlap in a neurological
loop.

I'm more curious than contrary, asking from my long-term interest in
musical time perception. But I have to disagree with your earlier statement
that pseudo-science drivel is pointless. Sometimes it is an annoyingly
valid attempt at finding a language for ideas which cannot be expressed
with pure mathematics or with pure poetry. Sometimes it is e-snakeoil
marketing instead. Which is this?

-Alex S.

>> Anyone experience this?  In looping too.  Sometimes you stop thinking
>> and just interact with the loop and a piece just sort of generates
>> itself.
>
>Happens to me every once in a while, more often when looping. Time
>seems to compress (psychologically it does). I think it has something
>to do with the way the involuntary bodily functions (breathing,
>heartbeat, etc) and the mind (synaptic firing sequences and brain
>activity) become entrained by its environment after prolonged
>exposure. It's similar to the "jack-hammer effect" in psychology
>jargon.
>
>For example, if someone beside you starts up a jackhammer, initially it's
>quite startling, but after a few moments you filter out the startling
>elements and the body adjusts. After a few more moments
>your whole body synchronizes itself to "jack-hammer time".
>
>It's also at the root of the rhythmic, cyclic music of
>shamanistic ceremonies and similar rituals which send
>listeners and purveyers into hypnotic states, where time
>seems to disappear.
>
>The same phenomenon can be induced through drones, intoning
>and chanting. How do you think Monks deal with all those years
>cooped up in those Monasteries? "Hey, let chant. Let's get 'high'.
>
>Interesting stuff.
>
>- Larry
>
>
>> Interesting discussions regarding music, cosmology, religion, and
>> music being a cell, a microcosm of the macrocosm.
>>
>> All I know is that in various musica situations time has seemed to
>> stand still and it feels like you're flying in a dream or something.
>>
>> I've read that Fripp says once you experience that, you'll do almost
>> anything to get back to that.
>>
>> I can see why.  You can't plan it or force it to happen, it just does.
>>