Re: Interesting...

["Larry Tremblay" <ltct@concentric.net>]

> ltct@concentric.net typed:
>
> >["Jack-hammer time" is] also at the root of the rhythmic, cyclic music 
>of
> >shamanistic ceremonies and similar rituals which send
> >listeners and purveyers into hypnotic states, where time
> >seems to disappear.
>
> After all of the recent posts encouraging intellectual honesty, what are
> your sources for your statement that entrainment is at the root of
timeless
> music?

Hi Alex, good point.

Perhaps I should have said "may be at the root" instead. Anyway,
the "jackhammer effect" is a very well-understood phenomenon in
the psychology, psychiatric and neuropharmacology fields. Richard
Mailman, professor of psychiatry and pharmacology at the University
of North Carolina at Chapel Hill cites the "jackhammer effect" in
a recent article in preparation for a book about the relationship
of the neurotransmitter dopamine to emotion and cognition, which
is certainly tied up with "the perception of time", don't you think?.

> The time perception literature I've read lately is a bit more humble,
> suggesting
> that we don't really know the psychological or neurological reasons 
>behind
> widely reported variations in subjective duration experience. A number of
> experiments have demonstrated, using "the validity of the senses", that
> these changes do indeed occur, and I suspect that most people on this 
>list
> have first-hand experience from looping. But anecdotal first-hand
> experience is not proof, and stating it as such is getting awfully close
to
> "pseudo-science drivel". Furthermore, I believe there is rational 
>evidence
> in vision studies that perception and feelings overlap in a neurological
> loop.

True, there's no definitive "proof" per se, only shades of understanding,
given the complexity of the subject under study - the human brain. ;)

> I'm more curious than contrary, asking from my long-term interest in
> musical time perception. But I have to disagree with your earlier
statement
> that pseudo-science drivel is pointless. Sometimes it is an annoyingly
> valid attempt at finding a language for ideas which cannot be expressed
> with pure mathematics or with pure poetry. Sometimes it is e-snakeoil
> marketing instead. Which is this?

I have no problem with drawing analogies, or "finding a language for
ideas" as you put it, but "psuedo-science snakeoil crosses the line
when it parades itself out as truth, or factual. Scientists use analogies
all the time.

- Larry (not being contrary, just discussing)

>
> >> Anyone experience this?  In looping too.  Sometimes you stop thinking
> >> and just interact with the loop and a piece just sort of generates
> >> itself.
> >
> >Happens to me every once in a while, more often when looping. Time
> >seems to compress (psychologically it does). I think it has something
> >to do with the way the involuntary bodily functions (breathing,
> >heartbeat, etc) and the mind (synaptic firing sequences and brain
> >activity) become entrained by its environment after prolonged
> >exposure. It's similar to the "jack-hammer effect" in psychology
> >jargon.
> >
> >For example, if someone beside you starts up a jackhammer, initially 
>it's
> >quite startling, but after a few moments you filter out the startling
> >elements and the body adjusts. After a few more moments
> >your whole body synchronizes itself to "jack-hammer time".
> >
> >It's also at the root of the rhythmic, cyclic music of
> >shamanistic ceremonies and similar rituals which send
> >listeners and purveyers into hypnotic states, where time
> >seems to disappear.
> >
> >The same phenomenon can be induced through drones, intoning
> >and chanting. How do you think Monks deal with all those years
> >cooped up in those Monasteries? "Hey, let chant. Let's get 'high'.
> >
> >Interesting stuff.
> >
> >- Larry
> >
> >
> >> Interesting discussions regarding music, cosmology, religion, and
> >> music being a cell, a microcosm of the macrocosm.
> >>
> >> All I know is that in various musica situations time has seemed to
> >> stand still and it feels like you're flying in a dream or something.
> >>
> >> I've read that Fripp says once you experience that, you'll do almost
> >> anything to get back to that.
> >>
> >> I can see why.  You can't plan it or force it to happen, it just does.
> >>
>
>