Re: ambient then rhythmic?

[Kim Flint <kflint@loopers-delight.com>]

At 05:50 PM 6/13/2002, Kevin Goldsmith wrote:
> >Now I'm curious: how would things like unrounded multiply, 8th-quantized
> >substitute, or SUS-insert be done on a Repeater/DL4/JamMan/Boomerang?
> >
>Unrounded multiply == Shorten loop, this can't be done on all loopers, 
>but 
>it can be done on the repeater

Sorry, that is not correct. Unrounded Multiply is not really equal to 
"shorten loop". It is a lot more powerful than that. Unrounded multiply 
lets you multiply a loop by an arbitrary amount, set by where you tap the 
start and ending points. It can be shorter or longer than the original. 
While you are creating this new-sized loop, you can simultaneously overdub 
in real time. This means you could create a new loop that is .87x of the 
original, or 3.4x of the original, or whatever you want. Over the top of 
it 
you could then have a new overdub of this new length. Since you can start 
at any point of your original loop, you can effectively create a new 
startpoint of your loop.

The original question was about how to start with an ambient loop, and 
then 
evolve it into a rhythmical loop where the rhythm may not match up with 
the 
initial loop length. This is precisely the reason why we invented the 
Unrounded Multiply in the EDP, because this is a very common need.

The great thing about it is you don't even need to pay attention to the 
loop lengths at all as you are creating this. So for example, you start 
off 
creating your ambient loop however you like, creating some texture and 
overdubbing on it or whatever. Maybe it's 5 seconds maybe 8, whatever - 
it's ambient. Then gradually as you create it, some point in the loop 
begins to feel like the "beginning", and that is the point where you want 
to start something more rhythmic. This may have no relation at all to the 
actual startpoint of the loop, but it doesn't matter. At the point where 
you want to start the rhythmic section, you tap Multiply and start playing 
the new part. Again, you don't need to pay any attention to loop lengths, 
just your playing. When you reach the end of your rhythmic bit where you 
want to set the end of the loop, you simply tap Record. Now you have a new 
loop that is the length of your rhythmic phrase, with however much of the 
original ambient bed repeated under it as happened to fit in that space. 
This is a very easy and organic thing to do.

and no, the Repeater does not have a function like this, and neither does 
any other looper.

In LoopIV, we've opened up new possibilities with Unrounded Multiplies, 
where it has become an important part of doing LoopWindowing and granular 
loops.


>8th Quantized Substitute == overdub rhythmically (really replace 
>rhythmically, but lets say overdub because it produces a similar if not 
>the exact effect).  I've done this on the repeater, DL4, Headrush and 
>Boomerang, I don't own a JamMan, but I've seen it done there too.

again, you are not understanding the function. The notion of "quantized" 
control versus free or "unquantized" control of loop functions is unique 
to 
Loop and the Echoplex, which is the only device that lets you choose. The 
repeater does not have any such concept. It's functions are either 
quantized or not, and you do not have a choice. Same with all other 
loopers. I find the Repeater tends towards quantizing the control actions, 
since it tends to be aimed more towards dance music production where 
precise rhythm is important. Most other loopers only have unquantized 
action, where functions always happen immediately. This tends to work 
better in ambient loops, but can be a problem when you want the tight 
rhythmic accuracy. The EDP lets you work either way.

In LoopIV we have expanded the quantizing possibilities in some really 
interesting ways. It used to be in LoopIII that having quantize on only 
forced control actions to happen at the next cycle boundary. (in EDP-speak 
the cycle is the basic initial loop length set by Recording the loop, 
using 
multiply or insert lets you create longer loops that consist of multiple 
cycles.)

LoopIV now has two new values for quantize, 8th and Loop. Quantize=Loop 
means that if you have multiplied the loop, any functions you do will wait 
until the next overall loop boundary instead of the next cycle. This can 
be 
really practical in use.

Quantize=8th is interesting because it lets you subdivide the cycles for 
the quantizing boundaries. It actually subdivides according to the 
8th/cycle parameter, so you can make it anything you want. The default for 
8th/cycle is 8, so normally it subdivides to 8th notes. You could just as 
easily set it to 4 for quarter notes, or 5 or 13 or whatever. What this 
does is precisely quantize any action you do to the next 8th boundary in 
the cycle. This lets you do interesting things like replace exactly one 
8th 
note, for example. Or make sure reverse always starts exactly on the beat 
so that your loop doesn't fall out of rhythm while going in and out of 
reverse.

Above I think you are trying to imply that you just do the same thing 
manually, which is certainly possible. What you will find though is you 
can 
never be as precise as the machine (and maybe you don't want to be.)  
Using 
quantize=8th is great when you do want that machine like precision. It is 
also great when working with very fast tempos, where trying to tap in and 
out of a function in exactly one 8th note is too difficult. The results of 
using this function can sound a lot like using a step sequencer, and it's 
a 
lot of fun.

The next confusion you have is over the functions Replace, Substitute, and 
Overdub. These functions have similarities, but they are not the same. 
Everybody knows overdub, that is where you play something and it is added 
on top of whatever is in the loop, and both new and old remain. Replace is 
a very immediate function, where the current loop audio immediately drops 
out when it is pressed, and whatever you play during that time replaces 
what was there. Only the new thing remains.

Substitute is another new function in LoopIV, and is also unavailable in 
any other looper. Substitute is similar to replace, except the current 
audio in the loop doesn't disappear while you are playing the new bit. You 
still hear the existing stuff as you play, which can be very useful for 
maintaining the feel, or giving a sense of continuity to the listener. 
Then 
on the *next* repetition, the old stuff is gone and only the new stuff 
remains in the period where the Substitute was done. The result is like 
Replace, but getting there has a feeling of evolving rather than the more 
jarring and sudden action of Replace.

When Andre talks about using Substitute with Quantize=8th, this is how he 
is creating a lot of his tracks that have that step-sequencer feel to 
them. 
On the fly he can drop in 8th note length fragments of whatever he is 
playing into the loop, ending up with what sounds like a sequence of 8th 
note long sample fragments. As he plays his guitar, he simply taps 
Substitute to grab out an 8th note fragment into the loop. Because the EDP 
is precisely maintaining the 8th note boundaries, he can easily grab exact 
8th notes without much effort, and the result is a very tight rhythmic 
loop 
that remains tight no matter how much substituting and replacing he does.


>I haven't gotten my LoopIV upgrade yet, so I don't remember what 
>SUS-Insert does, but if you remind me I can describe how to do it for you.

Insert has always been a part of the Echoplex, and is also unique to the 
Echoplex. No other looper has an Insert function. Insert lets you insert 
new material into the loop, increasing the length of the loop in the 
process, all in real time. It is just like multiply in that it works with 
cycles, inserting in increments of the cycle length. So for example if you 
had a 1 bar loop, you could insert 3 more bars of new material and end up 
with a 4 bar loop. The difference between Insert and Multiply is that 
Multiply repeats the original material under you as you increase the 
length, while Insert does not.

And like Multiply, Insert can also be used Unrounded. So you could tap 
Insert and play for 2 and a half cycles, then tap Record to end the Insert 
without rounding off to the next cycle boundary. The result would be a 
loop 
3 and a half cycles long, that consists of the audio from the initial 
cycle 
plus the 2 and a half bars of new material that you played.

With LoopIV, this is what gets us to "SUS-Insert". SUS-Insert is a part of 
what we call Real-Time Granular Looping. SUS is short for Sustain, and 
means that a function is active only while you have a button pressed, and 
stops when you release it. With SUS-Insert and SUS-Multiply, the functions 
start when you press the button down, and does an unrounded ending when 
you 
release it. So the loop length is redefined by the function.

Since the function is only active while the button is pressed, a light tap 
on the button means you can literally activate the function for the few 
milliseconds of time during while the switch is actually contacting. The 
real-time OS of the EDP is easily able to respond to function commands at 
that speed, since it guarantees a very short latency of 1.5ms for any 
action. This means you can create loops that are made up of many tiny 
fragments of sound that you pull out of real-time playing, ending up with 
something that sounds completely different - Granular.

Of course there are many other applications of this, depending on how long 
you press the button changes the results completely. Combining it with the 
quantizing functions means you can get very precise rhythms out of it. etc 
etc. We really have no idea! Certainly we never imagined the things Andre 
is now creating with these ideas, and I'm really looking forward to what 
the rest of you might do with it. It's brand new territory.

and again, these are all completely unique to LoopIV. Nothing else does 
anything like it.



>Note: I'm not against the EDP, heck I own one.  But I've done a lot of 
>experimenting with other boxes to do what I need to do.  The EDP can 
>certainly do all those things much more directly (especially with a 
>super-duper MIDI command center under your feet) and probably better than 
>they could be done with another looping unit, but that doesn't mean that 
>they don't share capabilities.

No, that really is not correct. A very large amount of the functionality 
of 
the EDP simply does not exist anywhere else. That is especially true with 
LoopIV. Once you get past the beginner level functions, the EDP goes off 
in 
a very different direction than other loopers, like say the Repeater. (or 
you could think of it as the Repeater going off in a different direction 
from the EDP.) I find those two have very little in common at all, which 
is 
why you see so many people owning both. Boxes like the RC-20, DL-4, 
Headrush, etc, really don't even go past what we think of as the beginner 
functions on the edp. With those, even beginner looping stuff like 
feedback 
control is not even implemented, as you can see people scratching their 
heads over in another thread.


>I don't really use most of the features of the EDP, and I've never gigged 
>with mine.  I've found working with the other, simpler, boxes is usually 
>more than enough for what I do.  I keep promising myself to spend some 
>serious time woodshedding with the EDP so that I can feel comfortable 
>with 
>it, but I haven't really had a chance.

Well, I think that is the trick. What you have done with the EDP so far is 
probably just scratching the surface. That is why you are not realizing 
how 
much power is there and how much further beyond some of those other boxes 
it really goes. Spend some time with it, I think you will discover a lot!

kim



______________________________________________________________________
Kim Flint                     | Looper's Delight
kflint@loopers-delight.com    | http://www.loopers-delight.com