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I think this discussion is a bit vague, since "effects" is really a generic term for a vast array of tools with different purposes. So to "use a looper as an effect" doesn't really say much. Also, we tend to think of instruments as a self-contained device, but i wouldn't consider a looper by itself an instrument. OTOH a looper and a guitar:*that's* an instrument. Just like I would consider a guitar with an amplifier a whole instrument. Another example would be a filter. By itself it's just an "effect", but add an oscillator and some other things, and suddenly you have an instrument. And whether you actively interact with the filter or just leave it alone, it's still considered a part of the instrument, no? Ernesto -- http://fastmail.fm - Ever wonder why we aren't named snailmail.sm?