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I haven't read the whole thread (too many for my brief available time), but I did read the last one, and I'm nice and lubricated (gulp gulp) on my day off so I thought I'd throw in my random 2 cents about music... blah blah blah It might not have too much to do with the thread, but I hope you find it enjoyable and can relate on some level. I believe that music is the most powerful form of communication that we have. It's so direct to the physical (especially breath instruments) that it evokes a form of physical sync with underlying emotion/spiritual patterns. Some of my most profound experiences have been "improvising" with both musicians and non-musicians. When a simple "heart-beat" rhythm is the entry point, a metabolistic synchronicity occurs, and then the people involved can slowly put forth their own internalized form individualist musical communication. A form of communal telepathy can form, and then resonate frequencies of each individual can communally be explored (for better or for worse). A larger reflection of what it means to be a living creature on this planet can present itself through collective sympathy. I recently received a rare live CD-R by a great 80's instrumental band named "Dif Juz". There was an unreleased track that I gave my full attention to. I was on the couch riding waves of bliss. I was fully following the music in the moment. I became very aware that my mind was fully activated, but in a very relaxed way. Normally where there would be thoughts attached to such mental movement, there was only sound. I had no personal stake in the matter (had nothing to do with my ambitions, goals, personal endeavors) it was merely an emotion ride that activated my mind. The nature of it's current outcome had very much to do with what who I am, but only so much as it related to the music, not my daily activities. I understand and embrace structure to a point. Limitations help us to be free to forget those limitations and allow us to fully explore the human condition present within those limitations. That said, very rarely am I inspired by music that sounds "emotionally uninspired". To me, a genre is simply a structure that (hopefully) will allow the participants (performers or audience) to find the freedom of expression within those constraints. Pretty much all genres of music I adore and dislike equally. To me it's that intensity of the human experience (and all it's mysteries) that's exciting. So to me there is no real importance in "who did it first", more so "who took it the farther", and "who added something relevant". I certain appreciate the innovators, and much of the time, these folks end up accomplishing their task the best (in my silly opinion). There was something about these people and their "feelers" that they could pull this stuff out of the air and give it form. Blues, Rock, Techno, Jazz, Country, Classical, Experimental, whatever... means not much to me. When something is just inventive but without feeling, I tend to think: "well isn't that clever", but without emotional impact, I don't really want to listen to it again. People can perform music like they operate a microwave, following the directions and never understanding the roots of what makes it possible. I'm not talking simply theory here, more so a progression of human consciousness. When someone can work with the limitations that allow us to communally "initially" understand the structure, and then take it to new places, then there is commonality in exploration. It's allowed to be shared. It starts the story in a way that more people can understand it... and can thus hang on for the ride to new places. ramble ramble gulk gulk my two cents Jim Ellis