response to Mark Hamburg (live looping brand)

["loop.pool" <looppool@cruzio.com>]

This is a long one, so press delete immediately, but I wanted to respond to
Mark Hamburg's last post in detail
and then cease and desist on the subject.

Mark wrote:

"I've been assuming that "Live Looping" was an effort to establish a brand
for some set of music. "

An incorrect assumption as far as my involvement has been, Mark.   "Live
Looping"  was used as the only common denominator that a bunch of diverse
musicians (who still were part of a central community and internet forum:
Loopers Delight) used and,  at the same time, was a catchy term
that I could get journalists and radio DJs into.  It worked, so I kept 
using
it.

The paradigm of modern concert production since the mid seventies in the US
at least has been one where the promoters have tried to put
similar acts together on a bill, surmising that everyone wants to hear the
same kind of music in an evening.  It has reflected what I consider the
continued 'ghettoization' of music by the entertainment industry and radio
infrastructure (that has become increasingly monopolized by people who are
more interested in profits than creativity,  but don't get me
started.................lol).

One of my production heroes, the late and controversial Bill Graham, in his
early years tried specifically to mix up the musical styles on a bill
because he thought that young people were too narrow and uneducated in 
their
tastes in music.   He purposefully would put Duke Ellington and Jimi 
Hendrix
on the same bill,  self conciously trying to turn each other's fans onto
each other.     I loved this concept and learned a lot about music that I
didn't know by going to many of his
concerts...............lol.............my first concert at the age of 16 
was
my hippy sister taking me to see Canned Heat and Gordon Lightfoot (both
bands I didn't even know).

When I first started doing these small non-profit concerts,  I was
personally delighted that a specifically titled Bass Looping Festival would
have acts
as diverse as the ambience of a Scott Khunga Drengsen to the however you
could categorize Steve Lawson's beautiful music to me banging
away on a prepared bass with martini skewers......lol.

I've noticed in my own artistry that when I am confronted with really
minimalist constraints that it forces me to be creative in ways that I 
would
not normally be.    Last week list member Jon Wagner, Matt Davignon and a
few other artists were given only junk that the audience brought us and 
then
told to do an entire concert using only those found 'instruments'.   It was
wonderfully creative and each set of musicians played very differently (all
of them with looping devices, coincidentally).     I loved doing these
festivals for the same reasons:   a common metaphor,  the excitement of all
involved that we were doing something with great commonality and the juice
of creativity from seeing someone use the same kinds of tools you used in
completely idiosyncratic ways.   It was really awesome and inspiring to me
and still is.

So my intentions were twofold
1)  Use the catchiest term I could that was both short and also described
the common denominator of a performance with divergent musical styles.
2)  Intentionally start to educate the people in my community about this
mode of technological creation of music that I so loved and believed in:
looping.

So I have never intended to make the term 'Live Looping"  a brand.     It
was merely a commonality.  Hell, it was alliterative.....lol.

And think of it, folks,   what is looping afterall?...................what
does it specifically define, musically?....................practically
nothing , if we take into account the musically stylistic diversity of
everyone reading this.    And yet,  we all know what Loopers Delight is 
when
we log on to read the list.      We know there is a lot of diversity
musically here but that we are all, for some reason or other, fascinated by
the technology and the things it can allow us to do, expansively, as
musicians.     Loopers Delight works as a term because
Kim called it that and we thought it was great to come here.    It's a
commonality,  not a description.

Let me be obnoxious and write that one final time:       The term LIVE
LOOPING as I use it, represents a commonality;   not a style;  not a genre;
not a brand name; not a description.

  It is a term that is freeing in my mind, not constricting.   It is a term
that not everybody likes.   I completely understand why some people don't
respond well to it.  My friend Andre has always been uncomfortable with it.
We argued up one side and down the other about it and you know,
neither of us is right or wrong (though we both love to
argue...............lol).    If you can't relate,  I have no judgement and 
I
doubt that very few people here at Loopers Delight would either.  Call what
you do whatever you want.  If you want to successfully promote yourself to
the outside world and you are not playing conventional pop, jazz or
singersongwriter material,  you'll have to call it something or you wont'
get press.  That's been my experience at least.

I used the term because I knew I could get  a much better response from
journalists and radio DJs.   It worked where I live and seems to have 
worked
in  places as diverse as  San Luis Obispo, Boston, NYC, Cambridge, Berlin
and Firenze.

Could I have used a different term, instead?    Of course.     I've
discovered that promoting unusual music or music that the public is not
familiar with yet  always involves preaching to the converted first.  It's 
a
necessary evil and then with a small population base you try to expand the
best way you can.

I have also found that successful promotion of new or unusual musics has at
it's heart,  people who are
fanatically in love with the music and who want to promote it furiously
whether or not it will draw well or make lots of money.

I think specifically of one of the Bay Area's new treasures of new music
promotion:  our own Matt Davignon.      Matt was really uncomfortable with
the number of multiple artist theme concerts that I and others produced
called 'Festivals'.   He thought the term was over used an meaningless.
I disagreed with him, but he called his wonderful two day  production,  
'The
Two Day Bay Area Voice and Electronic Thingee".

Hell, I hated that term............lol......and argued with him to try and
convince him to change it (do we see a continuing theme
here......lol)......but it didn't matter, because Matt made it his own and
assembled a wonderfully creative lineup of artists
and the event was a huge success.................not even from an audience
standpoint, but from an artistic and a communal standpoint.  I think every
one
went away from the concert (and we had such luminaries as Amy X Neuburg and
Cirque De Soleil's Dina Emerson so it was a hell of great bill) excited
about the possibilites of solo voice and electronic processing duets.
Everyone went away wanting to collaborate with artists they hadn't played
with.   A Voice and Electronics tribe got created at tribe.net and there 
are
definitely plans to continue this new tradition.   It doesn't really matter
what it was called in a way (unless people won't write about
it)..............a few people came......saw a wonderfully creative themed
show and will bring more people the next time it happens.

Mark also wrote:
"A number of record labels have successfully defined brands over the years.
It's reasonably clear what is meant by the ECM sound though ECM's roster is
pretty diverse."

Good point.   What does ECM mean anyway?   Virtually nothing, until a group
of musicians banded together under a very loose banner
(and the iron hand of a producer with an aesthetic vision) and took it to
the world.    Just because of their committment (to do shows together; to 
be
on Manfred's label; to promote the concept as well as their music) and
Manfred's single mindedness,   ECM meant something for many years.
He could have called it BAMMA BAMMA with that roster of artists and his
drive and we would know the term today.


 Mark then asks:
"Is anyone who uses a looping device live doing something that would fit
under the term "Live Looping"?

At one of the shows I put on, yes.    Hans Lindauer or Massimo Liverani or
Os might have a different answer, however.   And they wouldn't be wrong.

"If yes, then how much value does the term have -- outside perhaps of Santa
Cruz -- for audiences?"

As much as you invest in it:    no more, no less.        And a lot of 
people
have used this argument with me in the past ,   "Well it works in Santa 
Cruz
only because Santa Cruz is so sociologically anomylous".    I think this is
completely specious argument

.  It worked in Santa Cruz because we worked our asses off to promote it.
Period. Point. Dot.

Massimo Liverani invested his energy like hell and the Firenze Live Looping
Festival was a wonderful event as a consequence.   I doubt anyone knew what
the term looping meant in Firenze before .

"If yes, does this mean that the only real audience
for a live looping event is more or less other people using looopers since
all that you can predict is use of looping devices (and technical
difficulties)?"

Unfortunately, Mark,  you don't gig very much so your experience is mostly
of the Y2K3/LOOPSTOCK mode.     I do many, many more live looping gigs than
these festivals all the time.  It's how I make a good deal of my living.
I"ve played for thousands of people who are non loopers.

The Metro ran an article on Amy X Neuburg calling her   'one of the most
prominent looping artists'.   They didn't (and it was the first time I ever
saw this in print) explain what they meant.  They assumed that everyone
knew.  That's just because we've been really over the top about promoting
here.

Last years Loopstock had very few people in attendance.    I loved it!!!!
It was one of the most inspirational gigs of the year for me and I learned 
a
ton.      So, whether I play for 500 'normals' at First Night on New Year's
Eve or just to a few of the converted at last years' Loopstock, it doesn't
matter to me.    It just doesn't change what how I try to promote it.

"If no, then we hit on the issue that seems to bother a number of people
here
which is that they feel they are using a looper live but aren't part of the
"live looping" movement.

Anyone who uses a looper live who feels left out, needs only to contact me.
I'll either invite them to come play with us at the next big event or I'll
take the time to help them to produce their own event in their own region.
There are wonderful generous people in this community.  People willing to
bend over backwards to educate, to lend a helping hand.  to help newbies 
get
started.   I"m bowled over by the general service nature of many of the
loopers here.   It makes me be proud to come here and consider myself a
community member.

"What is it that distinguishes "live looping" from
music involving the use of looping devices in a live context? Is it
something that an audience can recognize?"

It really doesn't matter, although I am one who believes that audiences can
and should be educated (lol, I think this tendency drives my brother 
crazy).

 What distinguished Sonny Rollins (non ECM member) from Jan Garbarek (ECM
stable member)?   They both played jazz.
They both played sax.     Would you have gone to see Jan Garbarek if he was
at a jazz festival?    Would you have gone to see him at a specific
ECM festival.   The answer to both questions would be yes, if you liked 
him.
Is Jan Garbarek better recognized because people assocotiated him
with the ECM label.  Yes.     Is Andre LaFosse better recongnized because 
of
his involvement with looping in public at live looping festivals.  Yes.
The term doesn't negate, limit or define either artist.  It's just more
people to , hopefully , sell or play your music for.   If, at one point,
Keith Jarrett
felt stifled by the term ECM and left the label (with a lot of publicity, I
might add.................<grin>),  that was cool too.   The same goes for
the talented and recently departed, Mr. LaFosse.

"Can you do live looping in the studio or is the live experience an
essential
part and recording CDs is pointless?"

Lol,  the answer, Mark, is that you can do whatever you want to do.
Depending on your mental set,   a descriptive labelling or 'brand" term
can either be constrictive or it can be expansive.  It's all up to you.
Personally, I have found that approaching looping with an expansive mind 
set
has led me to learn much more about making music.  It's made me happier and
allowed me to play with more and more interesting artists.

A lot of people seem to have fears about being boxed 
in..........categorized
and imprisoned.    As an artist,  if you don't let yourself be limited by
anything, then you are free to associate yourself with any community you
want to be a part of.      I, personally, am part of the World music
community, the Looping community, the Goth community,  the Avante Garde
community,  the Electronica community,  the Commercial music community, the
Acoustic Singer Songwriter community and many others.     Why allow 
yourself
to be limited?     Why give this labelling stuff so fucking much power.
Use Live Looping if it serves you or if you feel a part of it,  Don't if 
you
don't.


" If I didn't loop myself, what is it that would make me want to go to a
Live Looping event or
buy music identified as Live Looping? If it isn't useful to audiences why
use it as a brand?"

I'm just not with you on this whole brand concept, Mark, but the Y2K2 loop
festival raised $1,700 for the Cayuga Vault and helped them to
stay financially solvent as the only remaining inexpensive free music venue
in Santa Cruz.  We had the cover of the Metro and two hours of radio
interviews and on air playing to publicize that festival.   Seems like the
audience responded to something.

The Y2K3 festival ended up by losing a little  money, but the economy had
really soured in the interim year in the county.  I also had come back from
a 2 1/2 month tour in Europe, was exhausted, broke and didn't have as much
energy to promote as well as I had the year before.  I'm sure that had
something to do with the lower turnout.  We alsotried, ambitiously to 
extend
the festival to three days.  In retrospect, it was just too much and I will
scale Y2K4 down this year (and probably, for the first time in my history,
be more selective about who plays because of sheer logistics).

You must realize that because I wanted to help create and nurture a looping
community here in Santa Cruz that I wanted everyone to feel welcome.
This is not a Western paradigm,  it is more of an African paradigm:
everyone in the village sings and plays drums if they want.   I like this
and have fostered it.     Consequently,  the festivals have come under
attack for lack of professionalism and technical glitches.  In our defense,
the Y2K2 festival put 48 different artists on and off stage (with NO SET
CHANGE TIME planned) and the entire festival ran 15 minutes late in two 
full
days.  If you've ever produced a large multi-act festival you will realize
that this is almost a miracle of excellent production and a huge testament
to the fact that every single looping performer lent a hand and were
concious about their set times.

 You yourself have complained of these technical glitches Mark, but
ironically,  you were one of the newbies, originally, who benefited from 
the
fact that we tried to be all inclusive.

I'm going to continue to be as inclusive as I can.   Financially,  I can't
afford to lose any more money on these festivals and we may have to become
more exclusive, just in order to make the festival costs back by drawing an
audience.  We'll see.

    We seem to be in a low energy cycle in the looping community (witness
the dirth of people who, initially, responded to Hans call to artists for
Loopstock).   It will change..........just like the economy, I predict.

In the meantime,  anyone who wants to start using a new term (Cycletronica
or whatever) to describe what it is that we already do and have been doing
for years has my complete blessings.    I get better publicity and name
recognition here where I live with the Live Looping moniker so I'll stick
with it.   If it offends you,  I'm really sorry.       Seriously, and
without any rancor at all,    get out there and produce your own shows and
call them whatever you want.     I'll be there, cheering in the audience if
it has anything remotely to do with using a looping device live.

Rick