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Okay here goes . . . There's been a lot of speculation about how to get people aware of other loopers beyond those that are guitar players, how to get people to see gigs, how to get more people interested in the technique of looping for other music, etc. It seems to me that the biggest problem in all of this is that fact that the people who are into this sort of thing are a fairly small minority-even in the musician community. For every musician who wants to carry around a ton of gear and make strange, beautiful and probably unusual music . . . there are probably twenty guys who are the "plug and play, effects are bullshit" kind of guitar player (or insert instrument "X") who think that what we do is CRAP. [By the way another thing about guitar players being the nexus of this stuff, we bass players-and drummers?-are practically taught that effects and anything but the sacrosanct "GROOVE" are verboten.] When extrapolated out into the community at large, you get a really small audience. How many people worldwide (1 million? 2? out of billions?) are into non-mainstream/non-commercial music? Do you see David Torn or Bill Frisell (who are both doing pretty damn well compared to most of us-how many people doing day jobs or people doing music that qualifies as a "day job" on this list?) playing large venues? Mostly it's the small venues like McCabe's Guitars here in LA, etc. Sometimes they're LUCY and get on nationwide TV at 1:00 a.m. . . . Nope, most people listen to music as wallpaper to get through their work day, hits radio, smooth jazz, the quiet storm, etc. (Also, remember that Fripp didn't come "out of the box" looping, he was in a rock band and had an audience-some of whom followed him.) Anybody out there play at a party with a DJ also being used recently? People want to hear records that they already know, that way they can dance to Earth, Wind and Fire (who I love-not a put down), etc. This is not to mention that many people stop being adventurous (if they ever were) in terms of their listening around the time that they get out of college. Hence the "Sinatra, Beatles, etc. were better than this crap" parental thang. I guess that what I'm saying is that the "how to get to people" question is not going to be easily answered being, as I see it, a societal awareness issue. WE ARE ANOMALIES. Most people don't want to know anything other than what they know, they're pretty much happy with what they have . . . and if they aren't, they search something else out-they're already looking and may have found the EDP, insane music, etc. How do we nurture these people? I think by creating "hubs" of activity (see below). In terms of live music, people expect to like what they go out to hear. I agree with the guy who wrote about (I think) the Knitting Factory scene in NY: He goes out to hear stuff and doesn't always expect to like what he hears, in fact sometimes that's the point! (I often learn more from stuff that I don't like, or that isn't IMHO always "successful.") But even people who I know who play that sort of music will often ask "Is it something that I'll like?" Let's face it, it costs money to go out and hear people play music, and it can become something of an investment. People want return on their "entertainment dollar," they may not want to "learn" anything! In terms of gear, you can get into the same kind of quandry. Most people who play want to sound like someone else (at least when they first start out) or will help them make money playing. (Isn't a lot of the guitar market based on people who used to play in high school/ college that can now afford the Les Paul they always wanted so that they can play Stones covers once a week? Not a put-down, just a reality.) That box that someone wants to buy is something that their hero is probably using, or that will help them get that "marketable sound." If the populace at large doesn't want to hear "interesting" stuff (for the most part), how can it make money for the player (or for the company making the gear)? Most of the people on this list (I assume) have far surpassed that mentality . . . we're looking for the "ineffable other " (or something like that). Can you change the market place by personal action???? So where does this leave us? It leaves us with the hardy few who, "like us," are into expanded experience. So we have to search them out. . . and get what we do across. In my view, the only way to do this is for the musicians who play this kind of stuff to support each other: Go to gigs, tell friends/aquaintances about other people's gigs as well as your own. In short, creat a "scene" (a hub if you will). If you can create enough of a buzz, maybe you'll get 15 minutes of notice by the press in your area and humans besides the people who are playing the music will come and check out the music. Maybe if you're lucky, they'll like it and tell someone else . . . Basically it's a long-term and grinding task, with a lot of commitment to doing something else besides playing, composing, etc. and that's a hard bit of time to let go for most of us . . . Support Creative Music where you can. Sorry if this is a downer or boring (long-winded), or what-have-you. I'm just trying to get across some ideas that have been sitting around in my head for a while and have now been spurred on by a couple of the last threads. stig P.S. For those in the LA area: for the last 4-plus years there's been a scene called New Music Monday, first at the Alligator Lounge, then the Gig (both Santa Monica), and soon to be at Luna Park (in West Hollywood-restarts 16 March '98) that does a lot of interesting music . . . some looping, a lot isn't. It encompasses anything from total distortion/fuzz-tone rockish free improv, to chamber music, to DJ-assisted mayhem improv, to prog-punk noise, to avant jazz. It's been pretty cool, check it out.