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Tom Ritchford wrote: > No insult intended, Mark, but visual design takes a lot less > background to get right than hardware or software engineering. > It's, er, easier.... um, sorry? this seems like a really silly statement. following your line of reasoning i suppose you could say that learning to play the violin really well is much easier than "getting it right" in hardware or software engineering. everybody thinks what they do is challenging and requires the years of study and experience they have put into it. i have been in the design field longer than you have been a professional programmer (btw, i checked out your resume. very impressive, but not very well designed). i have worked on all manner of projects, from comprehensive wayfinding programs for cities and airports, through large and small-scale corporate identity, packaging and book design. i've designed exhibits, retail showrooms and custom furniture; created environmental graphics for large-scale multi-venue sporting events and developed color palettes for auto manufacturers. heck, i've even designed custom high-end textiles for major corporate boardrooms and 12-color venetian terrazzo floors for saks fifth avenue. right now i'm prototyping my own line of furniture, on top of running a full-time graphic design studio, which i've been doing for the last eight years. most of these projects have required working as a member of a team, adding "more complexity and risk" in your words. it is always challenging, and when i feel i am doing my best it is very gratifying. "good" design like "good" programming, requires much more depth of involvement than what you characterize. it is well you are able to design simple web sites. generally the simpler the better, especially with that medium, though the tools available today for such work often obscure the difference between fair looking stuff and excellent design. i can also pick up a stradivarius and get a decent tone. but REALLY PLAYING it is something else and, to paraphrase your words, even though i may know what i want it to sound like, i couldn't possibly "implement it in a guaranteed flawless fashion". design is no different. respectful apologies for the rant. lance g.