Re: Building a rackmount looping computer as an alternative to the Receptor for Mobius

["Kris Hartung" <khartung@cableone.net>]

I don't understand the non-real time argument here against PCs. Sorry, Per,
I must have misunderstood your comments and need to re-read them.  Or was 
it
Kim?  I'm open. Educate me.

I just finally got Mobius set up with my laptop and Behringer 
controller...I
can't tell any difference in timing between hitting the Record button for
Mobius and hitting it for my EDPs.  And when it comes to controlling my VST
effects via MIDI, in some cases it is faster than hardware. I've owned many
hardware effect units in the past where there was a 1 second delay in
program changes....not with my notebook.   I don't have any latency 
problems
either.  Hmmmm...no latency, no delay in program changes...what &#@!@* is
the problem?  :)  All the problems I've encountered have been my own damn
fault...trying to pack 25 pounds of shit (i.e., VST effects and programs)
into a 5 pound bag (i.e. notebook system).  That's not a problem with the
system, but the intent of the user (me). I'd like to see any pro audio unit
handle the same strain we try to put on PC...so we need to compare apples
with apples here.

And I don't see the point in making a strong bifurcation between PCs and
hardware effect units...it's all just hardware and software (embedded or
installed).  It's all about a processor of some sort managing tasks (or
mangling, depending on the system) based on how much memory and speed it 
has
to work with, the speed of the communication channel (buss, i/o, etc), the
number of tasks, how it switches between each task, how many it can do in
the background, what it does when it runs out of resources, etc, etc.  
Given
that PCs are designed to do other things besides just running music
software, there are obviously other competing tasks to factor into the
equation, but then again, how fast is the processor on the EDP and the
memory allocation, relative to a 3GHz processor on a notebook with 1 gig of
RAM? And what is the expectation of one unit to run vs. the other.
Again...apples with apples.

Why such the black and white separation of PCs and pro audio hardware?  Is
the reality of the situation really black and white? I can find hardware
units that suck in terms of real-time functionality, and also PCs that have
much to be desired....but I can put together a notebook system that screams
and is lightening fast. I just don't get the categorical separation. My
problems with the PC and music software are caused by my unrealistic
expectations....that 5 pound bag issue.

No boxing gloves on here...just speaking my mind and playing the devil's
advocate....maybe taking a more balanced and pragmatic view.

Kris




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Larson" <Jeffrey.Larson@Sun.COM>
To: <Loopers-Delight@loopers-delight.com>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Building a rackmount looping computer as an alternative to the
Receptor for Mobius


>
> Yes, yes, the "non real-time" aspect of PCs has been beaten to death
> here.  Sure it is a concern, but frankly it is overblown.  Time will
> tell.  I do however completely agree that purpose built hardware will
> be better than a general purpose computer attempting to do the same
> thing.  No question.  Unfortunately, no one makes hardware that
> does what I want so I'm forced to use a computer.  It is a sad, sad
> existence.  Pity me.  Luckily I'm not "pro" :-)
>
>  >> It would cost what, 12 or 13 thousand to duplicate what mobius will 
>do
>  >> with edp units! and that doesn't even consider the nightmare of 
>trying
>  >> to wire up and control 16 edp's
>  >
>  > Well, you also have to consider the whole ethical dilemma there, and
>  > what your conscience allows.
>
> Ok I'll bite.  Ethical dilemma?  Oh I get it, did I "steal" your ideas?
> Well, they weren't hard to steal, they were all published quite nicely.
> Everyone on this list whines about how manufacturers aren't listening
> to the looping community by failing to incorporate some popular feature
> into their product.  If they did would that be stealing?  Do you
> own the concept of "multiply"?
>
> Some people believe I somehow copied the actual assembly code off the
> EDP ROMs and built an emulator to run that in Windows.  This is untrue
> and I would in fact consider that unethical.  Mobius was a *lot* of
> work.  I have invested well over a thousand hours in it.  Had I chosen
> to make my usual consulting rate during those hours I could have made
> a lot of money.  Now I give it away for free for the benefit of
> those that can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on hardware.
> I'm sorry if you consider that unethical, I don't.
>
> And as I've said before, I really don't think Mobius is affecting the
> sales of EDPs at all.  Based on some of the feedback I get I've
> probably even sold a few EDPs for you.  There are plenty of people out
> there that are curious about the EDP but they're not going to spend
> a thousand dollars to find out.  Now they can get a pretty good idea,
> but for all the reasons you so eloquently point out they don't
> want to deal with a laptop on stage.  So they decide to buy an EDP.
> You're welcome.
>
> I have an enormous amount of admiration for the EDP designers.  This
> device quite literally changed my life.  It saddens me that Mobius
> irritates some of you, but I honestly cannot understand how it
> adversely affects you in any way.  No one else was going to do this,
> it is incredibly difficult and you can't make money selling it.
> This is my hobby, I build the things I want and if there are other
> tone deaf rhythmically challenged amateurs that like it too, well
> fine I get some karma points.
>
> Warmly,
> Jeff
>
>